Do we really need to weed out the bad in every Dino toy company?

[Hynerpeton]

I meant by looking at the photo and actual toy. "I see no stealing."

[Gwangi]

I meant by looking at the photo and actual toy. "I see no stealing."

Well you need to read what other people are writing before coming to that conclusion, most importantly what the artists are writing. Do the picture and the toy look similar? I think you'll agree that they do. And yes, it is cute but that is only because the picture they modeled their toy after is cute. Sepp was not commissioned by and/or paid by Geoworld for that Therizinosaurus. You really think it is alright for Geoworld to make money off of her work?

[tyrantqueen]

Well you need to read what other people are writing before coming to that conclusion, most importantly what the artists are writing. Do the picture and the toy look similar? I think you'll agree that they do. And yes, it is cute but that is only because the picture they modeled their toy after is cute. Sepp was not commissioned by and/or paid by Geoworld for that Therizinosaurus. You really think it is alright for Geoworld to make money off of her work?

Heck they could have at least given her work a mention, or sent her a copy of the toy they ripped off. Like Safari did with their Luis Rey oviraptor. Something is better than nothing.

[laticauda]

"All models in the Geoworld collection are scientifically accurate museum replicas of dinosaurs or prehistoric animals. Each model is sculpted by expert craftsmen under the supervision of Dr. Stefano Piccini, geologist and paleontologist, to ensure the correct shape, posture and proportions. Geoworld products are paleontologist and geologist approved!"

How many people believed that statement when you first looked at a Geoworld figure.  They look cheap, feel cheap, and do not seem to be of any real quality.  Will they do the right thing?  They are a company out to sell a product without a history to fall back on.  Its like they are presenting everybody with all their certifications, but non of them seem to be valid. They will either improve their line and actually do what they are saying or they'll be another cheaposaurus company with copyright issues.   I completely agree with the Gwangi, tyrantqueen, well,  mostly everybody else, but what else can we do but let people know.  It is up to each person to do what they feel is right.

[Gwangi]

Yeah,  there is really nothing we can do about it except spread the word and not buy the product. Since I'm not the artist being taken advantage of there is even less I can do I would imagine. But it is at least important to get the word out. I'm in the process of writing a review for a GeoWorld model and you can bet I'm going to touch on the subject in that review. I have to, it's one of the offending models!

[Takama]

 With all of the ruckus about Geoworld and plagiarism, I feel as if I should collect them all while I can before someone sues them and make there products rare. but I have faith in them because the mammals cards seem to have digital copies of the models instead of someone else's work

[Hynerpeton]

With all of the ruckus about Geoworld and plagiarism, I feel as if I should collect them all while I can before someone sues them and make there products rare. but I have faith in them because the mammals cards seem to have digital copies of the models instead of someone else's work

. Lets hope.

[DC]

A feeding frenzy is unseemly and counterproductive.

I thought, civilized conversation, and was a great aside on an earlier post.  Imitation is a form of compliment.  Making a figure in the style of a piece of art work falls into that.  Courtesy is acknowledging the influence and helping the artist’s work reach a larger audience.  Safari ltd handled the Luis Rey Oviraptor gracefully and professionally.  It was intended as a tribute to someone whose work was admired.  It did not make buckets of money for them but gave him visibility. 

Should be discussing this, and I think yes.  I like to know what art influenced figures let us give credit to the artists.   That is positive Where did play Vision, Marx or Invicta get their ideas from?

I am more concerned about knockoffs that appear to be trying to pass as real CollectA, Safari ltd, Schliech or other products.  This is happening much more recently and I am inclined to let retailers who carry these products know that I find it distasteful and I am not comfortable doing business because of that.   

[amanda]

Though, with many retailers, it is very possible they just have no idea there is any problem ....

[Gwangi]

A feeding frenzy is unseemly and counterproductive.

I thought, civilized conversation, and was a great aside on an earlier post.  Imitation is a form of compliment.  Making a figure in the style of a piece of art work falls into that.  Courtesy is acknowledging the influence and helping the artist's work reach a larger audience.  Safari ltd handled the Luis Rey Oviraptor gracefully and professionally.  It was intended as a tribute to someone whose work was admired.  It did not make buckets of money for them but gave him visibility. 

Should be discussing this, and I think yes.  I like to know what art influenced figures let us give credit to the artists.   That is positive Where did play Vision, Marx or Invicta get their ideas from?

I am more concerned about knockoffs that appear to be trying to pass as real CollectA, Safari ltd, Schliech or other products.  This is happening much more recently and I am inclined to let retailers who carry these products know that I find it distasteful and I am not comfortable doing business because of that.

I don't equate this to what you're discussing. Sure, Safari was inspired by a Luis Rey piece but they still churn out a lot of original, well researched, high quality and accurate work every year. GeoWorld is just being lazy and that should be apparent. They're not doing this because they were "inspired", they're copying other peoples work because they don't want to do their own research. It's easier to just copy off of what someone else produced.

And sure, imitation is a form of flattery but it does not sound like a lot of these artists think that way. Never mind the fact GeoWorld doesn't do this to honor the skills of a particular artist, again...they're just being lazy. These are not tributes, they're cheaply made and cheaply researched. Invicta and Marx shouldn't even be brought up in this conversation, what people did in the past does not justify what people do today. I think that goes without saying. Dinosaur science was very young when those companies produced their toys and dinosaur restorations were few and far between. How many artists were drawing dinosaurs back then compared to now? We know a lot more these days. We all have access to countless reconstructions, skeletal diagrams and photographs or the ability to easily consult experts in the field. That is what Safari does. That is what Battat does. That is what CollectA does. That is not what Geoworld does. Their research amounts to a simple Google image search.

[laticauda]

A feeding frenzy is unseemly and counterproductive.

I thought, civilized conversation, and was a great aside on an earlier post.  Imitation is a form of compliment.  Making a figure in the style of a piece of art work falls into that.  Courtesy is acknowledging the influence and helping the artist's work reach a larger audience.  Safari ltd handled the Luis Rey Oviraptor gracefully and professionally.  It was intended as a tribute to someone whose work was admired.  It did not make buckets of money for them but gave him visibility. 

Should be discussing this, and I think yes.  I like to know what art influenced figures let us give credit to the artists.   That is positive Where did play Vision, Marx or Invicta get their ideas from?

I am more concerned about knockoffs that appear to be trying to pass as real CollectA, Safari ltd, Schliech or other products.  This is happening much more recently and I am inclined to let retailers who carry these products know that I find it distasteful and I am not comfortable doing business because of that.

I don't equate this to what you're discussing. Sure, Safari was inspired by a Luis Rey piece but they still churn out a lot of original, well researched, high quality and accurate work every year. GeoWorld is just being lazy and that should be apparent. They're not doing this because they were "inspired", they're copying other peoples work because they don't want to do their own research. It's easier to just copy off of what someone else produced.

And sure, imitation is a form of flattery but it does not sound like a lot of these artists think that way. Never mind the fact GeoWorld doesn't do this to honor the skills of a particular artist, again...they're just being lazy. These are not tributes, they're cheaply made and cheaply researched. Invicta and Marx shouldn't even be brought up in this conversation, what people did in the past does not justify what people do today. I think that goes without saying. Dinosaur science was very young when those companies produced their toys and dinosaur restorations were few and far between. How many artists were drawing dinosaurs back then compared to now? We know a lot more these days. We all have access to countless reconstructions, skeletal diagrams and photographs or the ability to easily consult experts in the field. That is what Safari does. That is what Battat does. That is what CollectA does. That is not what Geoworld does. Their research amounts to a simple Google image search.

"Hear, Hear"!

Or at least as far as what we think we know!

[DC]

Hmm, what I was trying to say was it is something we should discuss but why not do something positive as in use the forum to give the artists credit.  It makes the point to the public and business, credits the artists.  It could show the value of working with artists.  How do you think you are helping the career of artists by attacking the companies that might employ them?  I just think it is better to add value. 

[tyrantqueen]

Hmm, what I was trying to say was it is something we should discuss but why not do something positive as in use the forum to give the artists credit.  It makes the point to the public and business, credits the artists.  It could show the value of working with artists. How do you think you are helping the career of artists by attacking the companies that might employ them?  I just think it is better to add value.

But that's the whole problem. The artists aren't being employed by the companies, they're having their work used without being compensated for it. Now, I don't always think it's realistic to expect companies to pay money out to artists for say, heavily referencing a colour scheme or poses. You can't copyright nature after all. But if I am going to paint a dinosaur figure and I'm using another person's colour scheme, I would give credit where possible. I think little things like that are important.

Here's how I see it.
So heavy reference/inspiration = mention or a link back to the original work.
Outright using a piece of original artwork = express permission from the original artist.

This isn't a perfect world so I understand it doesn't always happen, but I still try to make an effort. That's my two cents on the whole thing

[Hynerpeton]

Hmm, what I was trying to say was it is something we should discuss but why not do something positive as in use the forum to give the artists credit.  It makes the point to the public and business, credits the artists.  It could show the value of working with artists.  How do you think you are helping the career of artists by attacking the companies that might employ them?  I just think it is better to add value.

I agree with this post.

Thanks

[DC]

But that's the whole problem. The artists aren't being employed by the companies, they're having their work used without being compensated for it. 

I see your point and agree, but artists are being employed we do not see their names I think if the artists who are doing the "bootleg" work had their names attached to their work they would be more careful about of their work and reputations.  The older tradition in European companies to keep the artist anonymous contributes to the problem.   I always try to get names from companies of who is doing the work.  Honestly most of the corporate managers are sales people they have no idea who they are copying they delegate that to their graphics staff.  I think a standard for all companies should be to acknowledge who is doing your work.  Safari ltd, CollectA and Kaiyodo do it.

[Dinoguy2]

In reference to JP:
"I'm sorry, but whose work are you referring to? Making things in a certain style is by no means ripping off."

The fact that this is even a question proves how ingrained the culture of plagiarism is in paleo. JP is not a "style", it's a specific product with a specific team of artists, including most prominently Crash McCreery.

A recent thread around here even proved that some of the original Battat figures were blatantly plagiarized http://paleoartistry.webs.com/1990s.htm (I assume, not sure if the artist was paid or not) and the reaction was "oh cool, I like that painting!" Note that web site also says Luis Rey has had a figure based on his work. Rey didn't know about this until somebody showed him the figure and he certainly was not paid. But in the world of dinosaur toys the reaction is "oh well, cool figure!". These companies can make as much money as they want by stealing the work of others with no consequences, yet we sit around and make fun of Chinasaurs? Which is worse, making a poor quality bootleg of a Safari figure, or Safari or Battat or Rebor or Geoworld or... everybody really, making a high quality replica from stolen professional artwork?

The similarities are closer in some cases than others, but, in the end, its Geoworld's own artists who did the drawings for the products, as well as the sculpting of the figures.

If that figure is based on someone else's drawing, up to and including the paint job, that isn't a crime.  Its more like a compliment.

Sorry, you're factually wrong. It is a crime in the US to pass someone else's art/designs off as your own for profit. That's why I can't start selling a line of Mickey Mouse Halloween costumes, even if I don't use the name. Disney would definitely not take that as a compliment.

Remember, they are not hiding in a far off country where they can't be sued.  They are upfront and legit.  If any of the allegedly aggrieved artists believes that he has legal cause against them, well, all they have to do is hire a lawyer because Geoworld is right here.

Most paleoartists are not wealthy enough to handle those legal fees without going to the trouble of a Kickstarter or something. There companies know that, which is why ripping off artists is so common. It's not just Geoworld, Safari and Battat and obviously Papo have done it too.
http://paleoartistry.webs.com/1990s.htm

When Luis asked Safari about it, I think I read they sent him a box full of that figure!

Really?? That is insulting. I would have sent that back to them and said "replace with a box full of A PAID LICENSING CONTRACT or watch my anti-Safari Legal Fee Kickstarter campaign begin.

[DinoLord]

I see the Battat T. rex color scheme mentioned a lot but I'm not sure if the situation is quite as open and shut as it seems. Whenever Dan paints up a T. rex, it's with that color scheme - including the life-sized one he did for the Boston Museum of Science! Perhaps there was some collaboration with the artist of that T. rex painting in which color schemes were lent one way or another.

[Dinoguy2]

I see the Battat T. rex color scheme mentioned a lot but I'm not sure if the situation is quite as open and shut as it seems. Whenever Dan paints up a T. rex, it's with that color scheme - including the life-sized one he did for the Boston Museum of Science! Perhaps there was some collaboration with the artist of that T. rex painting in which color schemes were lent one way or another.

You may be right, I asked Brian Franczak on FB so we'll see what he says...

[Sim]

When Luis asked Safari about it, I think I read they sent him a box full of that figure!

Really?? That is insulting. I would have sent that back to them and said "replace with a box full of A PAID LICENSING CONTRACT or watch my anti-Safari Legal Fee Kickstarter campaign begin.

I think this is what I read: http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.science.dinosaurs.general/48985  Luis Rey made a more recent post about it too: https://luisvrey.wordpress.com/2013/09/10/the-day-safari-got-inspired-by-yours-truly/  Both are interesting reads!