interspecies adoption among dinosaurs?

[sauroid]

very interesting read: art and article by Mark Witton

http://markwitton-com.blogspot.it/2015/03/tyrannosaurus-and-triceratops-friends.html?spref=tw

[Tyto_Theropod]

That was indeed interesting - as someone who loves studies of animal behaviour (and speculating about how dinosaurs might have behaved) this was very interesting indeed. I agree with the artist's opinion in that if a 'friendship' between these species did occur, it wouldn't last long. We don't just have the pop cult depictions of epic Hollywood battles between Tyrannosaurus and Triceratops to rely on - I believe there's hard evidence in the form of pathological fossils. However, I can see the 'accidental type happening between co-existing related species like Parasaurolophus and Lambeosaurus.

Also, the picture is stunning. I love the colours of the animals, they look very convincing. And Mark definitely knows how to draw 'cuteness' - I want to snuggle that Trike. Good luck with that, Tyto... there might just be a T. rex in the way! 

[CityRaptor]

Yes, I can see a succesful adoption between more closely related species as more likely. Or atleast between ones where one would not end up being eaten by the other.

Also anyone else immediatly thought of "You are Umasou!"?

[Blade-of-the-Moon]

You are Umasou! is a great movie, really enjoyed it.

It's certainly an interesting idea and a awesome piece of art.  I was reminded of the Lion and the Lamb scenario immediately.

Wouldn't the group from the Land Before Time and their diverse "herd" be a more plausible example?

Herbivores also seem more likely to see this behavior in. I recall a story called Herding with the Hadrosaurs. It's sci-fi but follows two orphaned human boys that are adopted by a herd of corythosaurs.

[Kayakasaurus]

I remember watching the BBC "Big Al" on YouTube. It said that allosaurus had a brain very similar in shape to that of a crocodile. And they where assuming That ment it had similar behavior, for example: immediately snapping at what  could be potential pray. If the same is true for bigger theropods like T-Rex I don't think a trike would last long. Crocs raise their hatchlings quite responsibly up to a certain age, then their fair game. So they might give a trike hatchling a fair chance. But the odds are not in favor of that adorable little guy.  I would adopt it in a HEARTBEAT!

[Kayakasaurus]

It's certainly an interesting idea and a awesome piece of art.  I was reminded of the Lion and the Lamb scenario immediately.

It's actually the wolf not the lion. But that is a common misconception. Isaiah 11:6 "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, The leopard shall lie down with the young goat, The calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little child shall lead them.

That is God's intent for creation, which he will restore.

[Gwangi]

It's not unheard of amongst modern dinosaurs.

The authors detail their search of the scientific literature for similar cases, and mention reports of sharing between two female cardinals and even a case of a cardinal feeding American Robin chicks. They state that "American Robins, however, are less tolerant of nest violations, generally rejecting Brown-headed Cowbird eggs, and have not been observed to exhibit intraspecific cooperative brood care." They go on to say that actual nest sharing between two different species of birds is not common. One documented example, however, noted a tree cavity nest that included nestlings of both Red-breasted Nuthatches and Mountain Chickadees, after adults of both species were seen bringing food to the tree hole nest.

http://askanaturalist.com/will-robins-and-cardinals-share-a-nest/

[Concavenator]

Mark Witton made  a good point,however I would not see a Tyrannosaurus looking after a Triceratops.Perhaps interspedies adoption among dinosaurs couldbe plausible between dinosaurs of the same family.For example,a Yutyrannus looking after a young Dilong.

[stargatedalek]

I think its just one of those things that no-one really knows. Lions will adopt baby antelopes, even at the risk of themselves being rejected by other lions, so I don't see tyrannosaur/ceratopsian as implausible.

[Tyto_Theropod]

Has anyone else got the series of books by Jennifer S. Holland (Unlikely Friendships, Unlikely Loves and most recently Unlikely Heroes. While they certainly aren't without sentiment, they are a good source of stories of cases like this. I have to admit that my interest in animal behaviour is only half the reason I read them - the other half being for a squee fest! 

Anyway, on a more serious note, I tried googling 'Interspecies Adoption', and found pretty much nothing but the written equivalent to pure fructose in the first ten pages. At least Holland's books do go into some of the psychology behind it all and have interviews with professionals like zookeepers and biologists - people who know their animals. From what I can gain from the stories in these books, most of the adoptions and 'friendships' fall under one or more of these categories:

- Humans provide an orphaned animal with a surrogate parent. This isn't wrong, but it isn't natural either. I'm not denying that animal behaviour under unnatural conditions isn't its own fascinating subject, but it's not what we're looking at here. Famous example: Jasmine the greyhound at Nuneaton & Warwickshire Wildlife Sanctuary.

- The 'adoption' or 'friendship' happens in captivity. Now I'm not some kind of rabid anti-zoo person who thinks all animal should be free. I am of the opinion that zoos can be great places if run properly. But the fact remains that although a good zoo will encourage as much natural behaviour in the animals as possible, it still isn't natural conditions. Famous example: Koko the gorilla and her pet cats.

- The animals involved in the 'adoption' or 'friendship' were in stressful circumstances. I've seen so many examples like this that I think it make sense to say that in a desperate situation an animal's desire for comfort must override the part of it that registers 'not my species'. Famous example: the lion, the tiger and the bear at Noah's Ark Animal Rehabilitation Centre, and the lion and tiger at Big Cat Rescue in Florida. In both these cases, the animals involved were rescued from the exotic pet trade.

Although there were exceptions, I'd like to reiterate that in all these categories, the species in the majority of the examples I found were reasonably closely related, and the majority of the less closely related ones tended to have similar diets and behaviours.

So, back to wild animals. IMHO, far too many people are likely to see two animals interacting and immediately label it as 'adoption' because they're anthropomorphising, or because they want to create a huggy, touchy-feely image, or because they want to make it more sensational for a newspaper report. This link shows just how treacherous this type of thing can be:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/animals-and-us/201112/scientific-mystery-do-wild-baboons-kidnap-puppies-pets

Similarly, we can see two animals interacting and label it as 'friendship', which is a very different thing. Now I personally think that this is a lot more likely to occur in the form of what I'll call 'friendly interspecies interactions'. Look at the dogs and the baboons in the article above. According to that, the two species had been observed interacting and 'playing'. So here, we don't have a dog and a baboon that are best friends. We have dogs and baboons that probably have better 'friends' within their own species, but play together.

Perhaps it's a bit like the best kind of interaction between humans and dolphins - wild pods of dolphins of various species are well know for interacting with human swimmers and beachgoers in a 'friendly' manner, and there's one famous pod off Brazil that supposedly co-operates with human fishermen, with both species benefiting. In fact, dolphins seem to be really good at this kind of interaction with several animals - I've heard stories of them doing it with seals and sea lions, dogs, and other cetaceans (obviously, as these are their closest relatives). It makes sense, as they're not only highly social animals, they're also curious by nature.

Anyway, the point is that this is certainly the most common kind of 'friendly' interaction between modern animals, so I don't think there's any reason at all why it shouldn't have happened with dinosaurs as well. Although playing is unlikely - some birds of prey have a form of it, but on the whole it seems to be a mammalian thing - I think it's a possibility - though obviously not a certainty - that species like Edmontosaurus and Pachyrhinosaurus might have had a sort of 'neighbourly' relationship.

Anyway, sorry for the loooooooooooooooooooong post, but anything to do with animal behaviour, and thereby speculative dinosaur behaviour, really interests me. So of course I jumped at this thread.

[Blade-of-the-Moon]

It's certainly an interesting idea and a awesome piece of art.  I was reminded of the Lion and the Lamb scenario immediately.

It's actually the wolf not the lion. But that is a common misconception. Isaiah 11:6 "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, The leopard shall lie down with the young goat, The calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little child shall lead them.

That is God's intent for creation, which he will restore.

Sorry, I guess I was thinking more of this Disney toon :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lhuuitUzd4

[Kayakasaurus]

It's certainly an interesting idea and a awesome piece of art.  I was reminded of the Lion and the Lamb scenario immediately.

It's actually the wolf not the lion. But that is a common misconception. Isaiah 11:6 "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, The leopard shall lie down with the young goat, The calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little child shall lead them.

That is God's intent for creation, which he will restore.

Sorry, I guess I was thinking more of this Disney toon :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lhuuitUzd4

Ha ha that's funny I love that last part! I haven't seen that before. It does illustrate the terrible relationship sheep have with Wolves... Now just imagine the wolf in harmony with the lamb  thanks for posting 

[Blade-of-the-Moon]

I love those old short Disney toons..grew up on em' Sadly not a dinosaur among them. :/

It does sort of take the reverse..say a juvenile tyrannosaur among a herd of triceratops..I always wondered about the " food issue" I mean a carnivore can't turn herbivorous. Same problem the other way round.  In birds they have a similar diet. Same would go for a chimp raising  a baby gorilla. Once you step so far out it gets..difficult.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xj-EKdkpNmU

[Kayakasaurus]

Like Chomper from The Land Before Time! That's what I was thinking. I watched those when I was little. Pretty embarrassing now . I actually like the animation from the first film though. I was surprised when I read about how much fruit some crocs eat in the wild and or captivity. Maybe munch on some fruit but I don't think that'd last to long. BTW that song drives me CRAZY! I tried to forget about it! You don't know what you've done! LOL 

[SBell]

Like Chomper from The Land Before Time! That's what I was thinking. I watched those when I was little. Pretty embarrassing now . I actually like the animation from the first film though. I was surprised when I read about how much fruit some crocs eat in the wild and or captivity. Maybe munch on some fruit but I don't think that'd last to long. BTW that song drives me CRAZY! I tried to forget about it! You don't know what you've done! LOL 

It's no different than how many 'herbivorous' animals are quite willing to purposefully kill and eat meat (cows, pigs, chickens, deer, baboons, many rodents, etc). It turns out animals are more interested in getting a meal than in fitting our preconceived notions (I heard it described as, "it's not like cows don't want to eat meat, they just don't have the tools to get it easily).

[Blade-of-the-Moon]

Like Chomper from The Land Before Time! That's what I was thinking. I watched those when I was little. Pretty embarrassing now . I actually like the animation from the first film though. I was surprised when I read about how much fruit some crocs eat in the wild and or captivity. Maybe munch on some fruit but I don't think that'd last to long. BTW that song drives me CRAZY! I tried to forget about it! You don't know what you've done! LOL 

The first film is awesome. The sequels..not so much.

Oh..I know..    lol

Like Chomper from The Land Before Time! That's what I was thinking. I watched those when I was little. Pretty embarrassing now . I actually like the animation from the first film though. I was surprised when I read about how much fruit some crocs eat in the wild and or captivity. Maybe munch on some fruit but I don't think that'd last to long. BTW that song drives me CRAZY! I tried to forget about it! You don't know what you've done! LOL 

It's no different than how many 'herbivorous' animals are quite willing to purposefully kill and eat meat (cows, pigs, chickens, deer, baboons, many rodents, etc). It turns out animals are more interested in getting a meal than in fitting our preconceived notions (I heard it described as, "it's not like cows don't want to eat meat, they just don't have the tools to get it easily).

Pigs,chickens,primates and rodents are omnivores though right? I haven't heard of a cow or deer though eating meat..at least not intentionally. I know some farmers use feed with high protein levels in it sometimes made from other animals.

lol for the quote..everything wants to be a carnivore.. 

[Balaur]

Pigs,chickens,primates and rodents are omnivores though right? I haven't heard of a cow or deer though eating meat..at least not intentionally. I know some farmers use feed with high protein levels in it sometimes made from other animals.

There have been cases of deers deliberately eating other animals. There was one case in which a deer was documented eating almost an entire nest of bird chicks. Also, I think it was the white tailed deer, that has also been documented actively hunting and eating rabbits and hares.

Interspecies adoption of dinosaurs... Modern animals do it, there's no reason to think that extinct animals don't. Cuckoo's will engage in brood parasitism, and we do know of a Byronosaurus embryo being in an oviraptorid nest, possibly a result of brood parasitism. But that's different from interspecies adoption.

[Newt]

http://scienceblogs.com/tetrapodzoology/2010/12/20/carnivory-in-cows-and-deer/

Re: birds playing, have you watched parrots much? Those are some playful critters. Play in non-endotherms is harder to find, but I've seen some videos of mormyrid fishes that sure looked like play. I guess play is pretty difficult to define from an ethological perspective; you have to make some assumptions about the purpose of the behavior or the animal's "intent".

I wonder how much research has been done into our own species' obsession with interspecific adoption. It seems more or less universal among modern cultures. All the hypothetical scenarios I've read about the early stages of domestication focus on hard-headed pragmatism, but I wonder if the first people to keep horses, cattle, dogs, cats, camels, goats, etc. thought of them as pets, rather than investments.

[SBell]

Like Chomper from The Land Before Time! That's what I was thinking. I watched those when I was little. Pretty embarrassing now . I actually like the animation from the first film though. I was surprised when I read about how much fruit some crocs eat in the wild and or captivity. Maybe munch on some fruit but I don't think that'd last to long. BTW that song drives me CRAZY! I tried to forget about it! You don't know what you've done! LOL 

It's no different than how many 'herbivorous' animals are quite willing to purposefully kill and eat meat (cows, pigs, chickens, deer, baboons, many rodents, etc). It turns out animals are more interested in getting a meal than in fitting our preconceived notions (I heard it described as, "it's not like cows don't want to eat meat, they just don't have the tools to get it easily).

Pigs,chickens,primates and rodents are omnivores though right? I haven't heard of a cow or deer though eating meat..at least not intentionally. I know some farmers use feed with high protein levels in it sometimes made from other animals.

lol for the quote..everything wants to be a carnivore.. 

Oh, it's real.

https://youtu.be/sQOQdBLHrLk
https://youtu.be/R9vxHN8_jSE
You can see it at 1min.

It's not really uncommon for 'herbivores' to eat meat any chance they can. Plants, especially leaves and grass, are terrible sources of protein and fat--so when the opportunity rises, they take it. And since meat is more easily digested than plant matter, the herbivore gut shouldn't normally have any issue with it.

It may help that modern ungulata and carnivorans are fairly closely related as ferungulata (or Scrotifera, with bats and pangolins, both of which contain carnivorous members) anyway. Whether this opportunistic carnivory would be seen, in, say, elephants or hyrax, which are more distantly related, is another question.

On another note, I think 'adoption' and brood parasitism' is being conflated a lot here--the victims of cuckoos and cowbirds are not choosing to rear other species; it has been documented that the parasitic species watch their hosts, and if those hosts try to get rid of the parasites, they are set upon until they comply (cuckoos and cowbirds often being larger than the hosts, and with much more energy available since they are not rearing young!).

Adoption tends to be meant as intentional (begrudging or not) care of non-offspring individuals. Social animals may do it for intraspecific juveniles, but as pointed out in the original article, study is generally limited to anecdotes so it is unknown how many of those are nephews/nieces or cousins being reared after parents are killed.

Interspecifically, it seems to show up a lot in heartwarming details, but again, study is mostly anecdotal so it would be hard to make judgements.

My own take is that it would be unlikely except in 'aberrant' individuals (as pointed out by Witton himself, his T.rex may be the first depiction of a mentally ill T.rex). Or that it would probably not look like that--maybe juveniles obliviously frolicking before remembering themselves?

I would personally like to see the reverse based on the videos above--a Triceratops (or Protoceratops) coming across a nest of T.rex (or Velociraptor, or some other appropriate, vulnerable predator) and taking the opportunity as they would.

[stargatedalek]

I would personally like to see the reverse based on the videos above--a Triceratops (or Protoceratops) coming across a nest of T.rex (or Velociraptor, or some other appropriate, vulnerable predator) and taking the opportunity as they would.

Actually I've had that idea in my head for a while, with an ironic twist on the famed fighting fossil, velociraptor defending its nest from an aggressive and/or careless protoceratops.