Spinosaurus new look!

[andrewsaurus rex]

Sim, the Carcharodontosaurs could have been scavenging the remains of a Spinosaurus, so it's not evidence of a direct confrontation between the two animals  (this is not in reference to the sharp spines on the sail, which I said not in any real seriousness, but to demonstrate that there are many possibilities that will be very difficult to determine from skeletal remains alone).

As an aside, it is interesting the a Charchar was gnawing on a Spino sail, it implies there was some meat on the sail and it was not just covered in skin....unless the Carchar was scavenging and was desperate enough for food that it would eat just skin.

[Sim]

Or maybe the bite was in a fight between the two animals, and Spinosaurus's sail was covered with minimal soft tissue.  Just saying it's a possibility.

[stargatedalek]

Ridiculous.

Even if we assume this a Carcharodontosaurus (I see no evidence of such, no teeth marks for example), there is nothing to indicate the Spinosaurus was alive when it happened. Also, even if this was an injury from a fight, a silly prospect to be frank, that does not in any way suggest it had minimal soft tissues on the vertebral columns. We have bite marks on spinal columns of whales, guess that proves their while bodies were shrinkwrapped too.

[Sim]

stargatedalek, please don't misrepresent what I said.  I simply said those things were possibilities, which they are no matter how much you make it seem like they aren't.  I'm also again unsure why you have to adopt a derogatory tone.

[stargatedalek]

stargatedalek, please don't misrepresent what I said.  I simply said those things were possibilities, which they are no matter how much you make it seem like they aren't.  I'm also again unsure why you have to adopt a derogatory tone.

If this was just a possibility why repeat it when people mentioned issues they had with that conclusion? That's not misrepresenting what you said, you came across as incredibly insistent when you repeated it twice in succession.

No tooth marks, no signs of a bite, no Carcharodontosaurus teeth in situ or lodged in the bones, or similar wounds on other associated bones. I genuinely don't think it's a possibility.

[Concavenator]

there is nothing to indicate the Spinosaurus was alive when it happened.

Yeah, I would say the safest bet simply is that a Carcharodontosaurus was scavenging on a dead Spinosaurus, so that doesn't necessarily imply any real interaction between the 2 taxa (when alive) - naturally, any carnivore will prefer to scavenge rather than going through the effort of hunting (for several reasons: hunting means an important effort, success is not guaranteed and there's always the possibility of the hunt turning out to be dangerous for the predator itself i.e lessions...).

I was going to say that if Spinosaurus really was that hapless on land I wouldn't see why wouldn't it be a feasible prey for a Carcharodontosaurus, but it seems the current consensus now is that Spinosaurus was bipedal (though Spinosaurus really is poorly known, so this is in the air), so in that case, from a Carcharodontosaurus' perspective, preying on an animal that's even bigger than you, that's not completely helpless on land, with such big claws and with a comparable (?) mass, certainly doesn't seem like the best choice, at least not unless the Carcharodontosaurus was terribly desperate. Carcharodontosaurus itself is fragmentary as hell too, though I don't think that's too relevant for this matter. Unless it was specifically adapted for preying on Spinosaurus for some reason, it's likely such a prey would be avoided (unless we consider the "sensible predator hypothesis", in said case if a certain Spinosaurus individual really was in bad condition - namely sick, very old/young or injured, then maybe that could have been an option).

And with that I'm leaving as I'm not really into the "Who wins?" thing, personally. 

[Sim]

People didn't mention issues with the possibility I raised, they mentioned other possibilities that didn't consider a bite could have occurred in a fight.

Maybe the sail was covered in sharp barbs of some kind making Spino more awkward and dangerous to attack..

This is the first thing I responded to.  If the spine of Spinosaurus had been bitten it most likely didn't have spikes, as I expressed in my response.

As an aside, it is interesting the a Charchar was gnawing on a Spino sail, it implies there was some meat on the sail and it was not just covered in skin....unless the Carchar was scavenging and was desperate enough for food that it would eat just skin.

This is the second thing I responded to.  I admit I somehow missed the part where andrewsaurus suggested a Carcharodontosaurus could have scavenged a spine covered in basically just skin, but it doesn't change that the situation they put forward appears to imply the bite didn't occur in a fight.  So it was appropriate to mention that the bite could have occurred in a fight.

No tooth marks, no signs of a bite, no Carcharodontosaurus teeth in situ or lodged in the bones, or similar wounds on other associated bones. I genuinely don't think it's a possibility.

Part of the vertebra is broken off, so I think tooth marks, "signs of a bite" and teeth would not necessarily be present.  As for similar wonds on other bones, I don't think that's necessary for an attack to have taken place.  It's fine if you don't think it's a possibility, but Mickey Mortimer of the Theropod Database accepts that the vertebra was apparently broken in life.

[Cretaceous Crab]

In general, my opinion is that neither carnivore considered the other as typical prey. Obviously, Spinosaurus was a semi-aquatic predator that specialized in fish but was an opportunist. Carcharodontosaurus and its kin were designed for quick attacks on sauropods.

Of course, this does not account for disputes over family protection, territory or other resources. One merely has to look at the diminutive weasel, which has a ferocity to match a wolverine.

While their designs and ecological niches were different, I think the same principle applies to extant ecosystems with multiple predators. As a rule, wolves, cougars, coyotes, wolverines and bears avoid each other, but will attack each other if aptly motivated.

At the end of the day, the fossil forensics don't explain everything. We just have to open-minded to possibilities. That is until, someone invents a time machine and we can go take a look for ourselves.

[stargatedalek]

Interesting, so it was a healed injury? That disproves scavenging but also provides absolutely no indication Carcharodontosaurus was involved. This could have been a mosasaur, a fall, a particularly large fish, another Spinosaurus, a falling tree, getting caught in a riptide and thrown into rocks, getting caught in a submerged cave and panicking... there are so many ways an animal could break a vertebral column that have nothing to do with predation, let alone indicate the involvement of any specific other animal.

[Sim]

It doesn't look like a healed injury to me, and I've not heard any mention of it being such, I think it's possible the Spinosaurus died after becoming injured.  In any case I think you're right that it could have been caused by many different things, including the "official" possibility that it was from a Carcharodontosaurus's bite.

[stargatedalek]

If it wasn't healed than there is no reason to believe it happened while the animal was alive? A "healed" injury does not always mean a "survivable" one, just that the animal survived long enough for the bone to show evidence of the surrounding wound healing.

We have healed injuries that prove Tyrannosaurus hunted live Triceratops, for example.

If there is conclusive evidence it was broken in life, that's what it is.

[andrewsaurus rex]

I thought there was no definite evidence of T rex hunting/battling triceratops.  Only evidence that T rex ate Triceratops, which only proves scavenging.

[stargatedalek]

I thought there was no definite evidence of T rex hunting/battling triceratops.  Only evidence that T rex ate Triceratops, which only proves scavenging.

There are Triceratops with healed bite wounds from Tyrannosaurus on their frills.

[Bread]

Jack Horner has entered the chat.

[GojiraGuy1954]

I thought there was no definite evidence of T rex hunting/battling triceratops.  Only evidence that T rex ate Triceratops, which only proves scavenging.

Jack Horner burner account

[andrewsaurus rex]

what are you guys talking about?