David Silvas New Kickstarter: Articulated Dinosaur TOYS

[stargatedalek]

I think it would be nice to have a small break between the ceratopsians, not necessarily with a full series of Tyrannosaurs, maybe as mentioned before a select few more "raptors". Deinonychus but also Utahraptor, and perhaps Austroraptor and Dakotaraptor, so as they could be in scale with some of the ceratopsians and still reuse parts if I'm not mistaken.

[ImADinosaurRARR]

I think it would be nice to have a small break between the ceratopsians, not necessarily with a full series of Tyrannosaurs, maybe as mentioned before a select few more "raptors". Deinonychus but also Utahraptor, and perhaps Austroraptor and Dakotaraptor, so as they could be in scale with some of the ceratopsians and still reuse parts if I'm not mistaken.

Defiantly, though, I'm not sure how happy I would be with a 2 inch Deinonychus. A 4 inch Utahraptor, Dakotaraptor and Austroraptor would be perfect!

Edit: Screw it, I'm PMing Silva about this!

[Sim]

I get what your feeling, but there's a lot of forgiveness and respect that I can give him. BOTM was his first wave of action figures that he's done on his own, and he's already applying what he's learned to his second, making sure that the different body types and sizes get represented while still saving on parts. With all the criticisms we can give the first line, he's still given us the most gorgeous Velociraptor on the market (in my opinion. I know people like Safari's but it's kind of a 'meh' to me).

I agree with all of this, with the exception that I think the WS 2017 Velociraptor is a very good figure.  While I really like the tail on the WS Velociraptor, I dislike how thick the feathering is on the underside of its neck, the dark lines where the skin on the snout meets the teeth and the white markings that run from its eyes down the neck.  So I agree with you in feeling the nicest available Velociraptor will be from Beasts of the Mesozoic.  I'm really looking forward to getting mine.

Besides, there's no reason to update the line right now. By all intensive purposes, the raptors are 80%-90% accurate, and that's mostly because of bone length. There will be reasons to redo the line one day. Once upon a time, the JP raptors were accurate. Just 10 years ago, raptors would have only had a few feather tufts, and no-one would have ever thought that they had full wings. I would say wait until science gives Balaur a head, or we get the colours of new species. As much as we would like, these toys are not the real animals, and I feel that remaking the raptors now would give us less reason to update it in the future, if you get were I'm coming from.

I don't think the Jurassic Park Velociraptor were ever accurate...  They certainly have never been accurate to  Velociraptor mongoliensis, due to the very different size and head shape, which has been known since the early 1920s.  They were pretty good for Deinonychus, no doubt because Deinonychus is what they were based on.  However, there is a bit more to this.  As Scott Hartman said here http://comments.deviantart.com/1/310579803/3856543350 John Ostrom's 1969 Deinonychus monograph shows separate skull bones accurately, but has a skull reconstruction where those bones don't match up at all!  For example, the upper jaw bones in the skull reconstruction are much deeper than they are shown to be in the monograph two pages later.  The head of the Jurassic Park Velociraptor, and of so many Deinonychus reconstructions, are unfortunately based on the inaccurate skull reconstruction in Ostrom's monograph.  So people may have thought this was accurate, but the bones illustrated in the same monograph show it wasn't.  It's interesting to what a great extent this has been overlooked.  There are even a lot of dinosaur exhibits with Deinonychus "skulls" that are actually sculptures based on that inaccurate skull reconstruction from the monograph rather than... the actual skull bones of Deinonychus.  At the moment, even the Deinonychus Wikipedia page has a number of photos that show these inaccurate "skulls" with no mention that they are inaccurate (one photo even shows one of the inaccurate "skulls" on its own, suggesting that's what the animal's skull was actually like).

"Just 10 years ago, raptors would have only had a few feather tufts, and no-one would have ever thought that they had full wings."
You mean 2007?  The first dromaeosaurid specimen found with feathers preserved, a Sinornithosaurus, was already known to have more than a few feather tufts since 1999.  The famous Microraptor specimen that showed it was fully feathered and that it had large full wings on its forelimbs and hindlimbs as well as rectrices was already known since 2003.  And 2007 was when it was discovered Velociraptor had quill knobs suggesting it had large wing feathers.  I think back then there was a lot less interest in feathered dinosaurs than there is now though.

If some BotM figures are re-released with improved accuracy, I'd be interested in getting them.  For the time being though, I think I'll be content with the BotM figures I ordered.  What I was saying was that I hope the missing much requested 'raptor' species get made for BotM, which I don't think means updating the line.  It would be representing them over two lines, like what's being done for the ceratopsians.

[ImADinosaurRARR]

I agree with all of this, with the exception that I think the WS 2017 Velociraptor is a very good figure.  While I really like the tail on the WS Velociraptor, I dislike how thick the feathering is on the underside of its neck, the dark lines where the skin on the snout meets the teeth and the white markings that run from its eyes down the neck.  So I agree with you in feeling the nicest available Velociraptor will be from Beasts of the Mesozoic.  I'm really looking forward to getting mine.

I wasn't saying it's bad. Just meh, y'know? Like, good, but not good for me. I guess my standards have been raised with BOTM. I'm holding the PAPO on my desk and I'm just like "Why can't you move! Fight the Allosaurus!"

"Just 10 years ago, raptors would have only had a few feather tufts, and no-one would have ever thought that they had full wings."
You mean 2007?  The first dromaeosaurid specimen found with feathers preserved, a Sinornithosaurus, was already known to have more than a few feather tufts since 1999.  The famous Microraptor specimen that showed it was fully feathered and that it had large full wings on its forelimbs and hindlimbs as well as rectrices was already known since 2003.  And 2007 was when it was discovered Velociraptor had quill knobs suggesting it had large wing feathers.  I think back then there was a lot less interest in feathered dinosaurs than there is now though.

Yea, now that I'm looking in to it, your right. I found this image from 2007. Even if it took time to catch on, feathers were definitely around back then:

If some BotM figures are re-released with improved accuracy, I'd be interested in getting them.  For the time being though, I think I'll be content with the BotM figures I ordered.  What I was saying was that I hope the missing much requested 'raptor' species get made for BotM, which I don't think means updating the line.  It would be representing them over two lines, like what's being done for the ceratopsians.

Yea, same. A second line is a nice idea :3

[stargatedalek]

I think it would be nice to have a small break between the ceratopsians, not necessarily with a full series of Tyrannosaurs, maybe as mentioned before a select few more "raptors". Deinonychus but also Utahraptor, and perhaps Austroraptor and Dakotaraptor, so as they could be in scale with some of the ceratopsians and still reuse parts if I'm not mistaken.

Defiantly, though, I'm not sure how happy I would be with a 2 inch Deinonychus. A 4 inch Utahraptor, Dakotaraptor and Austroraptor would be perfect!

Edit: Screw it, I'm PMing Silva about this!

I was thinking in scale with the mid-size range of the ceratopsians so they could reuse parts from the first raptor series, but you're right Deinonychus would be too small even in scale with the smallest from this ceratopsian line.

[Dobber]

Count me as another person that would want a break in between the Ceratopsian KS's. Whether it be the start of a Tyrannosaur line or the larger "raptors"

I'm not enamored by the Ceratopsians and am kind of bummed by a 2 year large line for them. It's good for those that want them though.

Chris

[ImADinosaurRARR]

I've PM'ed Silva and, well, sorry for not being able to talk about the bigger raptors. Unfortunately the conversation did not go in that direction. However, I was able to find out more about dates and stuff.

First off, no matter what happens the Tyrannosaurs Kickstarter IS coming in 2020. David predicts that he will finish sculpting the Ceratopsians by early 2019 and will immediately move on to Tyrannosaurs. The extension of the Kickstarter was just to fill our wallets after round one. It in no way delays the Rexes.

As for extra things to go with the Trics, he said he probably won't do accessory packs, but that "there will be something extra if things go as planned."... So if anyone want's to go to his Facebook and requests for raptors, he might be able to make room. I don't want to pester him though. 48 sculpts is enough for 1 human being in my opinion.

Edit: ALSO XENOCERATOPS PROGRESS!!!

[Faelrin]

I kind of would prefer a break between the Ceratopsians as well, but I understand why it will be done that way. I honestly hope the larger raptor species will be done at some point as well, such as Deinonychus, Utahraptor, and Dakotaraptor, and the adult Troodon.

[Dobber]

Thanks for the info ImADinosaurRARR. I'd pm him questions too but I don't use FaceBook.

Chris

[Sim]

Yea, now that I'm looking in to it, your right. I found this image from 2007. Even if it took time to catch on, feathers were definitely around back then:

Oh wow, I hadn't seen that picture before.  Given it's from 2007, it's impressive it has remiges on the fingers and rectrices, and it appears even fingers 2 and 3 are connected!

I think it would be nice to have a small break between the ceratopsians, not necessarily with a full series of Tyrannosaurs, maybe as mentioned before a select few more "raptors". Deinonychus but also Utahraptor, and perhaps Austroraptor and Dakotaraptor, so as they could be in scale with some of the ceratopsians and still reuse parts if I'm not mistaken.

Defiantly, though, I'm not sure how happy I would be with a 2 inch Deinonychus. A 4 inch Utahraptor, Dakotaraptor and Austroraptor would be perfect!

Edit: Screw it, I'm PMing Silva about this!

I was thinking in scale with the mid-size range of the ceratopsians so they could reuse parts from the first raptor series, but you're right Deinonychus would be too small even in scale with the smallest from this ceratopsian line.

If the large dromaeosaurids are made in the same scale as most of the ceratopsian figures (e.g. Styracosaurus) which is 1:18 scale, the largest ones (Utahraptor, Austroraptor, Dakotaraptor, Achillobator) should be around 30cm/12 inch long, basically the same length as the main raptors from the first BotM series (e.g. Velociraptor) and some of the ceratopsians like Styracosaurus.  Deinonychus should be around 20cm/8 inch long, which would make it larger than some of the smaller planned ceratopsians here: https://www.facebook.com/BeastSculptKit/photos/a.125819777433236.23596.113487525333128/1677000558981809/?type=3&theater

48 sculpts is enough for 1 human being in my opinion.

The ceratopsian parts maps David posted some time ago showed 52 figures.  Is he no longer planning to do some of them?

[stargatedalek]

I think it would be nice to have a small break between the ceratopsians, not necessarily with a full series of Tyrannosaurs, maybe as mentioned before a select few more "raptors". Deinonychus but also Utahraptor, and perhaps Austroraptor and Dakotaraptor, so as they could be in scale with some of the ceratopsians and still reuse parts if I'm not mistaken.

Defiantly, though, I'm not sure how happy I would be with a 2 inch Deinonychus. A 4 inch Utahraptor, Dakotaraptor and Austroraptor would be perfect!

Edit: Screw it, I'm PMing Silva about this!

I was thinking in scale with the mid-size range of the ceratopsians so they could reuse parts from the first raptor series, but you're right Deinonychus would be too small even in scale with the smallest from this ceratopsian line.

If the large dromaeosaurids are made in the same scale as most of the ceratopsian figures (e.g. Styracosaurus) which is 1:18 scale, the largest ones (Utahraptor, Austroraptor, Dakotaraptor, Achillobator) should be around 30cm/12 inch long, basically the same length as the main raptors from the first BotM series (e.g. Velociraptor) and some of the ceratopsians like Styracosaurus.  Deinonychus should be around 20cm/8 inch long, which would make it larger than some of the smaller planned ceratopsians here: https://www.facebook.com/BeastSculptKit/photos/a.125819777433236.23596.113487525333128/1677000558981809/?type=3&theater

I stand happily corrected! Even more conveniently scaled than I'd thought. Utahraptor and Austroraptor would need new skulls and Utahraptor a new tail, but should still be possible with mostly the same parts as the first series. I would bring it up with him but I don't use Faacebook either and don't really understand how it works.

[ImADinosaurRARR]

48 sculpts is enough for 1 human being in my opinion.

The ceratopsian parts maps David posted some time ago showed 52 figures.  Is he no longer planning to do some of them?

Nope. I'm just bad at counting ;p I'll trust your numbers.

If the large dromaeosaurids are made in the same scale as most of the ceratopsian figures (e.g. Styracosaurus) which is 1:18 scale, the largest ones (Utahraptor, Austroraptor, Dakotaraptor, Achillobator) should be around 30cm/12 inch long, basically the same length as the main raptors from the first BotM series (e.g. Velociraptor) and some of the ceratopsians like Styracosaurus.  Deinonychus should be around 20cm/8 inch long, which would make it larger than some of the smaller planned ceratopsians here: https://www.facebook.com/BeastSculptKit/photos/a.125819777433236.23596.113487525333128/1677000558981809/?type=3&theater

I decided to double check your cals and I'm now more confidant in a 18th scale raptor line:

The adult Utahraptor specimen from the family block would be about 26 centre meters long while the estimates for the largest individuals would be 38 centre meters long. I don't know if those estimates are outdated though. Dakotaraptor would be a perfect 30 with the current estimates. Austroraptor is also close with 27 centre meters. Achillobator has it's median estimates at the same size as Dakotaraptor so that's cool. I thought that, with such the size and build difference, it would be unrealistic to pass parts between them. But with how perfect these scales mach up, I would be surprised if David didn't plan this! Just goes to show where luck will get you.

Thanks for the info ImADinosaurRARR. I'd pm him questions too but I don't use FaceBook.

Chris

Your welcome ;3 I'm surprised more people don't PM him. A lot of the time I see this thread complain and complain. If you have a problem, tell him! Just don't be an as****e. Though In my opinion, I would rather wait until he has an assistant for s2 raptors rather then overwhelm him now.

I stand happily corrected! Even more conveniently scaled than I'd thought. Utahraptor and Austroraptor would need new skulls and Utahraptor a new tail, but should still be possible with mostly the same parts as the first series. I would bring it up with him but I don't use Faacebook either and don't really understand how it works.

At the right of the page (under Tsaagan) there is a Message button that has a speech bubble with a lightning bolt in it. Click it, and a new little tab will open were you will be able to talk to him all you like!

[Dobber]

ImADinosaurRARR, you may be misunderstanding what Stargate and I are saying. We don't have or use a Facebook account. I have ZERO interest in creating an account with them and don't plan on ever doing it. I get I may be missing out, as everyone seems to be using it for their business's now, but I PERSONALLY (not speaking for others or about others who use it) despise that site and most forms of Social Media. I was always happy to message him idea's and suggestions as Sim also did in the comments sections to his updates at Kickstarter, though. Unfortunately, he is much more active on FB. 

Chris

[ImADinosaurRARR]

ImADinosaurRARR, you may be misunderstanding what Stargate and I are saying. We don't have or use a Facebook account. I have ZERO interest in creating an account with them and don't plan on ever doing it. I get I may be missing out, as everyone seems to be using it for their business's now, but I PERSONALLY (not speaking for others or about others who use it) despise that site and most forms of Social Media. I was always happy to message him idea's and suggestions as Sim also did in the comments sections to his updates at Kickstarter, though. Unfortunately, he is much more active on FB. 

I know (at least with you. I didn't know stargatedalek didn't have one). When I replied to you, I was talking about other people not PMing, not you. Sorry if it came out that way :/ And sorry to stargatedalek as well. When I read your comment, I interpreted it as not using it because you didn't understanding it, not the other way around.

[Dobber]

It's all good, and I do appreciate you and others passing along yours and our thoughts.


Chris

[Dinoguy2]

Yea, now that I'm looking in to it, your right. I found this image from 2007. Even if it took time to catch on, feathers were definitely around back then:

Oh wow, I hadn't seen that picture before.  Given it's from 2007, it's impressive it has remiges on the fingers and rectrices, and it appears even fingers 2 and 3 are connected!

It may be impressive, but it shouldn't be - all that stuff had already been known for years since 2007. In fact, even in 2005, the AMNH hosted an exhibit ("Ancient Fossils, New Discoveries) on Liaoning fossils that featured models like these:







The exhibit opened in May 2005, so these models were in the planning stages by at least early 2004. These things are 13 years old! Even though a few could use some slight tweaks like fused fingers, most of these models would be perfectly acceptable today.

People act like "modern" looking feathered dinosaurs are perpetually a new thing that hasn't caught on yet when in fact they've been around for over 15 years, and slightly less modern looking dinos are nearly 20 years old. Many of the dinosaurs in current media were out of date before some of the people on this board were even born. So there's no excuse.

[Sim]

I decided to double check your cals and I'm now more confidant in a 18th scale raptor line:

The adult Utahraptor specimen from the family block would be about 26 centre meters long while the estimates for the largest individuals would be 38 centre meters long. I don't know if those estimates are outdated though. Dakotaraptor would be a perfect 30 with the current estimates. Austroraptor is also close with 27 centre meters. Achillobator has it's median estimates at the same size as Dakotaraptor so that's cool. I thought that, with such the size and build difference, it would be unrealistic to pass parts between them. But with how perfect these scales mach up, I would be surprised if David didn't plan this! Just goes to show where luck will get you.

The 7m length estimates for Utahraptor are outdated.  Its recently discovered proportions make Utahraptor's max. length estimate 6m.  Scott Hartman confirmed this here: http://comments.deviantart.com/1/179491659/4361313735  It looks like you used a 5m length estimate for Austroraptor, but it has a 6m length estimate too.  Scott Hartman's Austroraptor skeletal has it as a little over 6m long: http://scotthartman.deviantart.com/art/Feathered-spinosaur-mimic-298533490

I don't know to what extent the large dromaeosaurids could share parts with figures from the first BotM series as I've never checked that.  In any case though, in the BotM Kickstarter FAQ David said he wanted to give the large dromaeosaurids all new sculpts instead of making them share parts with the smaller species: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/creativebeast/beasts-of-the-mesozoic-raptor-series-action-figure/faqs  This is what is said:

Will you be adding larger raptors such as Deinonychus, Utahraptor, and Dakotaraptor as stretch goals?

No. That would mean a change of scale and I'd rather put those out with all new sculpts instead of sharing parts with the smaller raptors.

For a second raptor series, I think it would be good to consider the larger troodontids too, Troodon, Saurornithoides and Zanabazar.

Though In my opinion, I would rather wait until he has an assistant for s2 raptors rather then overwhelm him now.

I'd like David to do the other raptor figures, not someone else.  He's already shown an interest in doing them in that Kickstarter FAQ, and I'd like to see his representations of them.  From what I've seen David say and do, I think he manages his time well and has a good idea of how to avoid getting overwhelmed.  He's already had help with some of the painting, and with the package art, which I imagine will continue to be the case for Beasts of the Mesozoic.

The way I see it is that he's working on ceratopsians now, and has plans for tyrannosaurs afterwards.  I'm not expecting him to do a raptor series while he's working on another series.  Seeing as he's no longer excluding much requested species due to size class, I would very much like it if he made the 'raptor' species that were excluded from the first series due to their size.  If he did I'd enjoy other BotM series more, as I wouldn't be feeling he's making all the much-requested ceratopsians, tyrannosaurs, etc. but he hasn't done this for the raptors (which is the group I'm most interested in).  It would basically be completing the raptor series, like how he's doing ceratopsians over two series.  There is also that basically all these species that would be made for a second raptor series, except Troodon, have no good modern toy version or any toy version, so that would make them even more exciting to have as figures.

I hope David will make those other raptors before doing a line that isn't ceratopsians or tyrannosaurs.  I don't think it would be a huge line like the ceratopsian ones, with regards to the number of figures, but I do think it would be very well received.  There was a lot of requests for Deinonychus and other larger raptors during the BotM raptor series Kickstarter.  As has been mentioned previously, a series with larger raptors could also include alternate colour schemes for species to help fill the number of releases.  The smaller of the larger dromaeosaurid/troodontid species e.g. Deinonychus could also be made in more than one scale so they are available in 1:18 scale like Utahraptor, etc. and the ceratopsians, and also available in a similar size to the 1:6 scale raptors from the first BotM series like Velociraptor and the 1:18 Utahraptor, Styracosaurus etc....  Funnily enough, that could be possible for Deinonychus if it were also made in the other scale David listed in this scale comparison, 1:12 scale: https://www.facebook.com/BeastSculptKit/photos/a.125819777433236.23596.113487525333128/1630722520276280/?type=3&theater

[Patrx]

People act like "modern" looking feathered dinosaurs are perpetually a new thing that hasn't caught on yet when in fact they've been around for over 15 years, and slightly less modern looking dinos are nearly 20 years old. Many of the dinosaurs in current media were out of date before some of the people on this board were even born. So there's no excuse.

Exactly! I don't think I'll ever quite understand why our understanding of such things is so very slow to catch on, even among people who're interested in the subject, or employed to teach it. For every excellent museum display like that one, there are dozens of lazy, outdated traveling animatronic shows or toylines peddling stuff that would've been educationally useless even in 1997.

In the interest of staying on topic, it's great to see a toy designer so interested in accuracy! I'm not much for articulated figures, but I did preorder the Atrociraptor early on, and the Microraptor pack. I only wish he'd added fuzz to the Atrociraptor's manual digits when he updated the others, and that the Microraptor had more fluff around its neck.

[Faelrin]

So I saw a comment on the fb page (I think on the Xenoceratops post), where someone was requesting that he give the ceratopsians keratin covered faces. What's the consensus on that and how does it work if it's an accurate thing to have? I think I recall Saurian incorporating it for their Triceratops, but the coloration on the frill would still be visible. I may need to look again, since it's been some time since I read that post.

[stargatedalek]

So I saw a comment on the fb page (I think on the Xenoceratops post), where someone was requesting that he give the ceratopsians keratin covered faces. What's the consensus on that and how does it work if it's an accurate thing to have? I think I recall Saurian incorporating it for their Triceratops, but the coloration on the frill would still be visible. I may need to look again, since it's been some time since I read that post.

Keratin should be brightly coloured, these are display structures of course. No reason for a ceratopsians frill or horns to look like giant nails, they should look more like toucan beaks as far as keratin goes!