David Silvas New Kickstarter: Articulated Dinosaur TOYS

[Appalachiosaurus]

I'm not sure if many of any of these species were able to bend their wrists in such a way to slow the wings to conform to their bodies the way modern birds do. Or am I wrong?

Chris

No, you're correct. The way the wings are on the toys would probably have been the resting posture in life.

[Silvanusaurus]

I'm not sure if many of any of these species were able to bend their wrists in such a way to slow the wings to conform to their bodies the way modern birds do. Or am I wrong?

Chris

No, you're correct. The way the wings are on the toys would probably have been the resting posture in life.

I'm very confused as to why this would appear in the artwork, not only for this line but by a number of prestigious paleo-artists known for their commitment to accuracy, if it was known to be incorrect. Especially in the case of a line of figures for which the driving ethos is creating accurate depictions of these dinosaurs, it wouldn't make much sense to adhere them to artwork (intended to show them in their natural form) which falsely represented the animal's anatomy.





Are these images wrong? Surely having their arms and all those feathers stretched out at all times would seriously impede their ability to run at any great speed?

[Flaffy]

New lateral image

[Arul]

What a wonderful work, beautiful paint. Going bigger and bigger. Great, all about feather

[Flaffy]

Welp, I'm going broke. New pyroraptor image

[spinosaurus1]

[Dobber]

Damn, Pyroraptor looks pretty darn nice....I was going to skip this one and go with the Fan choice version instead, but I like the  simple Browns of this one quite a bit.

Chri

[Dobber]

I'm not sure if many of any of these species were able to bend their wrists in such a way to slow the wings to conform to their bodies the way modern birds do. Or am I wrong?

Chris

No, you're correct. The way the wings are on the toys would probably have been the resting posture in life.

I'm very confused as to why this would appear in the artwork, not only for this line but by a number of prestigious paleo-artists known for their commitment to accuracy, if it was known to be incorrect. Especially in the case of a line of figures for which the driving ethos is creating accurate depictions of these dinosaurs, it wouldn't make much sense to adhere them to artwork (intended to show them in their natural form) which falsely represented the animal's anatomy.

..... Surely having their arms and all those feathers stretched out at all times would seriously impede their ability to run at any great speed?

I may have sort of misunderstood you.  the wrists don't appear to bend too much in the artwork you posted but it seems to be more of an elbow bend going on there. That would help tuck the wings in more....not completely like a true bird, since the wrist motion is limited, but closer. For the figures I think the problem comes from the limitations of plastics and not being able to bend and such like flesh and feathers could. I also think someone....maybe even me....asked him a while ago about separate arms and I think it was possible due to possibility and or the possible weakening of the joint to allow the arms to pop in and out.

Here is an interesting article by Emily Willoughby on Dromaeosaur wings.
http://ewilloughby.tumblr.com/post/77562344781/i-absolutely-love-your-paleoart-miss-willoughby
Chris

[Silvanusaurus]

Ah, it was just wishful thinking, I wasn't thinking of having wings that could actually fold in via articulation; just solid pieces that could be placed in the arm socket, possibly allowing a simple swivel motion, but if it could cause the joint to break in removing the arms then it wouldn't be worth it. It would have been cool for the build-a-raptor kits though, it probably would have been enough to get me to buy one of them, anyway.

[Dobber]

Ah, it was just wishful thinking, I wasn't thinking of having wings that could actually fold in via articulation; just solid pieces that could be placed in the arm socket, possibly allowing a simple swivel motion, but if it could cause the joint to break in removing the arms then it wouldn't be worth it. It would have been cool for the build-a-raptor kits though, it probably would have been enough to get me to buy one of them, anyway.

That's not a bad idea for the build-a-raptor sets. Why not suggest it to him?

Chris

[Appalachiosaurus]

I'm not sure if many of any of these species were able to bend their wrists in such a way to slow the wings to conform to their bodies the way modern birds do. Or am I wrong?

Chris

No, you're correct. The way the wings are on the toys would probably have been the resting posture in life.

I'm very confused as to why this would appear in the artwork, not only for this line but by a number of prestigious paleo-artists known for their commitment to accuracy, if it was known to be incorrect. Especially in the case of a line of figures for which the driving ethos is creating accurate depictions of these dinosaurs, it wouldn't make much sense to adhere them to artwork (intended to show them in their natural form) which falsely represented the animal's anatomy.

Are these images wrong? Surely having their arms and all those feathers stretched out at all times would seriously impede their ability to run at any great speed?

While pretty, the artwork does have a lot of problems. The figures are much better.

[Tyto_Theropod]

Welp, I'm going broke. New pyroraptor image

Great, now I'm trying to work out how I can afford this, the Velociraptor and appropriate add-ons for both of them! I think I may be eating air for a while...

[Silvanusaurus]

While pretty, the artwork does have a lot of problems. The figures are much better.

You genuinely think these animals would have had their wings stretched out, either dragging on the floor or reaching outwards to the sides or front, at all times in their day to day life? Would that not have been incredibly unwieldy, not to mention the strain on their arms? Wouldn't those long feathers get all scuffed up while traversing rocky or forested surroundings (look at the recent image of linheraptor; where the wing feathers literally reach down to the level of the feet), and why would no extant dinosaurs exhibit this? I apologise but it seems nonsensical to me. If you could offer an explanation as to how the wings on these figures are representative of a relaxed position, rather than just saying 'that's just the way it is', it would be very helpful.

[Dinoguy2]

I'm not sure if many of any of these species were able to bend their wrists in such a way to slow the wings to conform to their bodies the way modern birds do. Or am I wrong?

Chris

No, you're correct. The way the wings are on the toys would probably have been the resting posture in life.

I'm very confused as to why this would appear in the artwork, not only for this line but by a number of prestigious paleo-artists known for their commitment to accuracy, if it was known to be incorrect. Especially in the case of a line of figures for which the driving ethos is creating accurate depictions of these dinosaurs, it wouldn't make much sense to adhere them to artwork (intended to show them in their natural form) which falsely represented the animal's anatomy.

Are these images wrong? Surely having their arms and all those feathers stretched out at all times would seriously impede their ability to run at any great speed?

People seem to be confusing the issue of wrist folding with the issue of the wings being flush against the body.

1. Could the wrists fold up to the degree of modern birds? The very few studies done on this topic (all by the same scientist, btw) say no. Dromaeosaurids in particular seem to have been able to get a little more than a 90 degree bend. IMPORTANT NOTE: Even most modern birds typically do what they do with about a 45 degree bend. Twice as bent as a dromie, but it's NOT like the hand bones are pressed up against the arm bones or even close to touching them in most cases.

2. Could the wings be held against the body as shown in the box art? Absolutely. As noted, this is elbow folding. The wrists don't look folded much past what is likely possible. As in modern birds, the amount the wing was flash with the body would have appeared much greater due to the arm pressing into the long puffy body feathers. The body feathers on the figures are quite short and adhered to the body, which makes the wings look like they're sticking out more than they do in the art.

The main discrepancy between the pictures and the figures is not the wing anatomy, but the body feather anatomy. It also looks like the elbow joint in the figures is not able to close enough to properly fold the wing. The elbow should fold so that the forearm is almost parallel with the upper arm, and the upper arm should be horizontal to the back (that looks like it's probably possible).

It might be that the reason people think the wing folding looks wrong in the posed figure photos is because David is trying to put the wrist at the level it is in the box art. But, because the elbow join can't fully close, this ends up putting the wing in an extended, rather than folded, position.

A second set of interchangeable wings locked in a true folded position would probably go a ways to fixing this, but the extremely short pelt would still make it look a little awkward and different from the box art.

[Dobber]

I'm not sure if many of any of these species were able to bend their wrists in such a way to slow the wings to conform to their bodies the way modern birds do. Or am I wrong?

Chris

No, you're correct. The way the wings are on the toys would probably have been the resting posture in life.

I'm very confused as to why this would appear in the artwork, not only for this line but by a number of prestigious paleo-artists known for their commitment to accuracy, if it was known to be incorrect. Especially in the case of a line of figures for which the driving ethos is creating accurate depictions of these dinosaurs, it wouldn't make much sense to adhere them to artwork (intended to show them in their natural form) which falsely represented the animal's anatomy.

Are these images wrong? Surely having their arms and all those feathers stretched out at all times would seriously impede their ability to run at any great speed?

People seem to be confusing the issue of wrist folding with the issue of the wings being flush against the body.

1. Could the wrists fold up to the degree of modern birds? The very few studies done on this topic (all by the same scientist, btw) say no. Dromaeosaurids in particular seem to have been able to get a little more than a 90 degree bend. IMPORTANT NOTE: Even most modern birds typically do what they do with about a 45 degree bend. Twice as bent as a dromie, but it's NOT like the hand bones are pressed up against the arm bones or even close to touching them in most cases.

2. Could the wings be held against the body as shown in the box art? Absolutely. As noted, this is elbow folding. The wrists don't look folded much past what is likely possible. As in modern birds, the amount the wing was flash with the body would have appeared much greater due to the arm pressing into the long puffy body feathers. The body feathers on the figures are quite short and adhered to the body, which makes the wings look like they're sticking out more than they do in the art.

The main discrepancy between the pictures and the figures is not the wing anatomy, but the body feather anatomy. It also looks like the elbow joint in the figures is not able to close enough to properly fold the wing. The elbow should fold so that the forearm is almost parallel with the upper arm, and the upper arm should be horizontal to the back (that looks like it's probably possible).

It might be that the reason people think the wing folding looks wrong in the posed figure photos is because David is trying to put the wrist at the level it is in the box art. But, because the elbow join can't fully close, this ends up putting the wing in an extended, rather than folded, position.

A second set of interchangeable wings locked in a true folded position would probably go a ways to fixing this, but the extremely short pelt would still make it look a little awkward and different from the box art.

That is what I was saying in this post:

I'm not sure if many of any of these species were able to bend their wrists in such a way to slow the wings to conform to their bodies the way modern birds do. Or am I wrong?

Chris

No, you're correct. The way the wings are on the toys would probably have been the resting posture in life.

I'm very confused as to why this would appear in the artwork, not only for this line but by a number of prestigious paleo-artists known for their commitment to accuracy, if it was known to be incorrect. Especially in the case of a line of figures for which the driving ethos is creating accurate depictions of these dinosaurs, it wouldn't make much sense to adhere them to artwork (intended to show them in their natural form) which falsely represented the animal's anatomy.

..... Surely having their arms and all those feathers stretched out at all times would seriously impede their ability to run at any great speed?

I may have sort of misunderstood you.  the wrists don't appear to bend too much in the artwork you posted but it seems to be more of an elbow bend going on there. That would help tuck the wings in more....not completely like a true bird, since the wrist motion is limited, but closer. For the figures I think the problem comes from the limitations of plastics and not being able to bend and such like flesh and feathers could. I also think someone....maybe even me....asked him a while ago about separate arms and I think it was possible due to possibility and or the possible weakening of the joint to allow the arms to pop in and out.

Here is an interesting article by Emily Willoughby on Dromaeosaur wings.
http://ewilloughby.tumblr.com/post/77562344781/i-absolutely-love-your-paleoart-miss-willoughby
Chris

[Silvanusaurus]

People seem to be confusing the issue of wrist folding with the issue of the wings being flush against the body.

1. Could the wrists fold up to the degree of modern birds? The very few studies done on this topic (all by the same scientist, btw) say no. Dromaeosaurids in particular seem to have been able to get a little more than a 90 degree bend. IMPORTANT NOTE: Even most modern birds typically do what they do with about a 45 degree bend. Twice as bent as a dromie, but it's NOT like the hand bones are pressed up against the arm bones or even close to touching them in most cases.

2. Could the wings be held against the body as shown in the box art? Absolutely. As noted, this is elbow folding. The wrists don't look folded much past what is likely possible. As in modern birds, the amount the wing was flash with the body would have appeared much greater due to the arm pressing into the long puffy body feathers. The body feathers on the figures are quite short and adhered to the body, which makes the wings look like they're sticking out more than they do in the art.

The main discrepancy between the pictures and the figures is not the wing anatomy, but the body feather anatomy. It also looks like the elbow joint in the figures is not able to close enough to properly fold the wing. The elbow should fold so that the forearm is almost parallel with the upper arm, and the upper arm should be horizontal to the back (that looks like it's probably possible).

It might be that the reason people think the wing folding looks wrong in the posed figure photos is because David is trying to put the wrist at the level it is in the box art. But, because the elbow join can't fully close, this ends up putting the wing in an extended, rather than folded, position.

A second set of interchangeable wings locked in a true folded position would probably go a ways to fixing this, but the extremely short pelt would still make it look a little awkward and different from the box art.

This is exactly how I was viewing the situation, the how and why of the wings being folded wasn't the point (I wasn't referring to wrists specifically), it was just that the figures as they are clearly have wings which are only really capable of being stretched out, and that I personally would have liked to see alternate wings which were folded closer to the body to provide a more compact and streamlined pose. I realise it's not overly practical, and at this point would probably be impossible without resculpting the bodies too, like I said, it was just wishful thinking, I don't have a problem with the wings are they are either way. I'd rather have seen folded arms on Papo's recent effort too, because there's something odd about the figure being in an essentially quadrupedal pose, that takes a away from it's naturalism for me, at least with these figures the wings can be moved and bent into different positions.

[Sim]

Emily Willoughby explained and showed how folded dromaeosaurid wings probably tended to look like here: http://emilywilloughby.com/gallery/paleoart/the-terrible-claw

Based on photos of the Beasts of the Mesozoic figures, to me it looks like their wings can be posed quite close to how they would look fully folded.  Given how close the figures seem to come to being able to achieve this, additional permanently folded wing parts is not something I'd personally want since I imagine it would raise the cost of the figure and I'd rather have wings that can be posed in many different ways on an action figure.

[Silvanusaurus]

Ok, I appreciate that it can't work in reality with these figures. It was just an act of imagining something idealised that I even acknowledged would be impossible with the figures and their format, it was just a wistful idea, not an academic proposal. These are action figures, not real animals with real feathers, so of-course I know it's not going to be possible to replicate a smooth conforming feather covering while maintaining the action-figure capabilities, just like I know there's no way they will be able to make attractive chirping noises, run around on my desk, and lay chocolate eggs. But surely I am not the only one who would like to imagine such a thing being possible?
Anyway, I'm sorry I ever mentioned it now.

[Sim]

I didn't mean to make you feel upset Silvanusaurus.  My post wasn't aimed at anyone in particular.  I wanted to express my own preference, and that I think the ability of the figures to fold their arms might be being underestimated.  Looking at the Adasaurus figure here, to me it looks like if the wrist is folded back and the upper arm is rotated back at the shoulder, the figure's wings will look very much like they do in Emily Willoughby's Deinonychus I linked to: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/creativebeast/beasts-of-the-mesozoic-raptor-series-action-figure/posts/1647918


A new Kickstarter update was posted!: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/creativebeast/beasts-of-the-mesozoic-raptor-series-action-figure/posts/1659513

Some things included in this update that I wasn't expecting:

- A new comparison of the old and new Zhenyuanlong.

- Balaur will have the new Zhenyuanlong primaries.

- Balaur, Dromaeosaurus and Linheraptor will have the new Zhenyuanlong secondaries.

- A snippet of the Wetlands accessory pack package art!

[Silvanusaurus]

Has there been any kind of video posted demonstrating the articulation being manipulated in hand? It would be really very interesting to see, as I only remember viewing still photographs.
I'm pretty excited to hear Balaur is getting those new wings, I think thats a dead cert for me now, everything on the Balaur just pushes all the right buttons for me. It's probably time I got around to doing the Backerkit before I forget.