Knock-off figures - general discussion

[tyrantqueen]

I cant bring myself to buy bootlegs. If i want to find a model for cheap i just go to every dinosaur seller i know like ED, DD,MZ and Ultz and ME and of course Ebay and wait. Usually i buy mine for a few dollars less but every penny counts!

Good on you

[SidB]

TQ's commendation is appropriate. Definitely the right thing to do is not to buy these bootlegs. This thread has an interesting history for those who, like myself, read it for the first time. The issue has been argued back and forth several times and I'd thought that the ethics (or lack) of the phenomenon of bootlegging had been looked at from all the angles and discussed with vehemence at times. I noticed that one senior member even got himself banned for life as a result of his provocations and antics, back in 2014.

Looking at the discussions around the Papoesque Spino-Bary hybrid recently got me thinking about what exactly constitutes a bootleg. This instance seems to be a new wrinkle. It's technically something new in its theft of two Papo originals. Is this okay, because it's not a direct copy of either original? Or, is this a case of two wrongs not making a right? Looking back at the 2014 fiasco gave me a bit of a hint of what the matter at stake actually is. The banned member made the case that he could not afford to be ethical, essentially. The counter was - then don't buy anything, rather than the bootleg. Buying is a want, not a need. Bingo!

This being the case, what about our hybrid "Papo"? Well, on the principles under discussion, if I want one, I should buy one each of the original Papos, then switch the heads. This is the ethical thing to do, if not the fiscally sane. But $ is not the point, ethically, because I have no necessity to make the purchase nor is anyone compelling me to do so. It's strictly voluntary. I'm a free agent, or should be. It's a hobby, not a slavery, though it can become so if I give myself over to it 100 percent. But then it's no longer a hobby but a form of emotional bondage and the fun is gone - there's precious little of "me" left.

Again, TQ , among others, is right - don't buy bootlegs. Kit bashing two originals into one is the way to go, if you can afford it, otherwise desist for the sake of the original creators. In the long run we all benefit. Beside's the kit bashing exercise will be a valuable subcreative experience and will teach the doer useful skills for the future.

[Rain]

@SyndicateBias Is it a case of principle (legitimacy/morality)? Or more of a quality control issue? You mention that you will do whatever in your power to obtain the cheapest "legitimate" model, and will never buy a bootleg.
This figure is actually one of the least bootlegged-ish figures available. The head is a Papo Baryonyx for sure, but the body (spine-sail, tail, arms, etc.) look to be originally sculpted, but heavily inspired by the Papo Spinosaurus.

Not true, the arms legs and tail are all from Papo as well. I'd need a better look at the figure but I'm pretty sure the body is stolen as well. The only thing unique is the sail.

[mgaguilar]

TQ's commendation is appropriate. Definitely the right thing to do is not to buy these bootlegs. This thread has an interesting history for those who, like myself, read it for the first time. The issue has been argued back and forth several times and I'd thought that the ethics (or lack) of the phenomenon of bootlegging had been looked at from all the angles and discussed with vehemence at times. I noticed that one senior member even got himself banned for life as a result of his provocations and antics, back in 2014.

Looking at the discussions around the Papoesque Spino-Bary hybrid recently got me thinking about what exactly constitutes a bootleg. This instance seems to be a new wrinkle. It's technically something new in its theft of two Papo originals. Is this okay, because it's not a direct copy of either original? Or, is this a case of two wrongs not making a right? Looking back at the 2014 fiasco gave me a bit of a hint of what the matter at stake actually is. The banned member made the case that he could not afford to be ethical, essentially. The counter was - then don't buy anything, rather than the bootleg. Buying is a want, not a need. Bingo!

This being the case, what about our hybrid "Papo"? Well, on the principles under discussion, if I want one, I should buy one each of the original Papos, then switch the heads. This is the ethical thing to do, if not the fiscally sane. But $ is not the point, ethically, because I have no necessity to make the purchase nor is anyone compelling me to do so. It's strictly voluntary. I'm a free agent, or should be. It's a hobby, not a slavery, though it can become so if I give myself over to it 100 percent. But then it's no longer a hobby but a form of emotional bondage and the fun is gone - there's precious little of "me" left.

Again, TQ , among others, is right - don't buy bootlegs. Kit bashing two originals into one is the way to go, if you can afford it, otherwise desist for the sake of the original creators. In the long run we all benefit. Beside's the kit bashing exercise will be a valuable subcreative experience and will teach the doer useful skills for the future.

Ah, thank you for the explanation! Definitely see it from that side now. I will abstain myself from purchasing in the future. I apologize for all the commotion.

@Rain, got it! I think the paint job was what made it seem different, but the recent review from Rupi online made me think some of the details were different.

[Simon]

I am generally against bootlegs as a matter of principle (especially when it involves the theft of garage kit makers' high-end resin models that cost a lot to create - that is outrageous).

But when it comes to mass-produced toys, I am a bit more ambivalent - and here's why. 

I generally have never bought knockoff toys because the quality stinks.  I am not even sure that things like bootlegged 6-paks of bagged toys you see in cheap stores take anything away from companies like Papo or Safari, because I do not think that they appeal to the same market.  The buyers of Papo and Safari toys wouldn't buy a cheap, low-quality knock-off, and the people who buy the low-quality knock-offs are probably unlikely to ever buy the "real thing" because that is not what they are looking for...

For the record - this "chimera" of a Spinosaurus figure we are discussing is a better overall toy (not quality wise, but looks-wise) than either of its Papo "parents" ... just the same, I wouldn't buy it because of the quality issue.  (If I wanted one I would just enjoy grafting a Papo Bary head onto a Papo Spino body) ....

[yankeetrex]

Out of curiosity, has anyone ever put the spino head on a Baryonyx body?

[Reptilia]

Out of curiosity, has anyone ever put the spino head on a Baryonyx body?

I was suggesting it in another thread just yesterday. Regarding the infamous hybrid of Papo figures I think it is a total abomination. Both Papo Spinosaurus and Baryonyx have great artistic value, regardless of their inaccuracies. That bootleg is a poor attempt of making a believable Spinosaurus, but the result is rather ridiculous in my opinion. Not that trying the same mix with the two original figures would turn out any better, mainly cause putting a real Spinosaurus head on a JP Spinosaurus body would look odd anyway.

On bootlegs' topic: if you're not against bootlegs for ethical reasons you should at least despise them for the awful product quality they have. It's like getting a blurry pixelated picture in place of a full HD one, what's the point? People can do what they want, if you want to buy bootlegs I won't be the one telling you is wrong, I just don't understand the reasoning behind it.

[Syndicate Bias]

I dont despise them because they hurt companies and High End kit sellers. i despise them because they arent the real thing. To me its an insult to have a bootleg in my collection as a collector that is my opinion though. Its like if you collect real fossils and you have fakes as well in it. It takes away from the authentic feel of it. I dont know i just cant, also because the wuality is always worse and i also despise lower quality.

[Cretaceous Crab]

Regarding this particular figure...I have always felt that if the Papo Spinosaurus had a head more like the Baryonyx figure, it would be 10% more desireable...at least to me anyway. I personally do not like the Papo Spinosaurus primarily because of its inaccuracies, but its still a cool figure to look at and play with, as my 6-yr-old can attest.

But I agree with many others on principle: if I wanted to see or have a figure like this done, I would make the modifications myself with existing Papo figures I acquired, or wait for the company to do it on their own. I would not buy a bootleg. My nephew has a bootleg of the running rex, and it is definitely of a quality that I would not want in my collection. However, he is not as an "avid" dino nut as my son and I, and the bootleg suits him and his needs. I'm certain his parents were not even aware it is actually a knock-off of a better quality figure.

[Syndicate Bias]

Its an eyesore to me. If i have one which i never will but if there was one id throw it away. I like authenticity over affordable bootlegs

[stargatedalek]

There are three situations where I'm comfortable purchasing a bootleg product (or pirating a product if it's digital). If the original is long unavailable and my money would only be going to scalpers and not to the original creators and to respectable retailers, if the product is more expensive than I would ever be comfortable paying and therefore not denying the original creators of a sale, or if I'm only purchasing it for customization or to remove specific parts of a set.

I like to support original creators and producers whenever possible, but I don't have any hangups about bootlegged products themselves so long as the quality is respectable for what the cost is.

I think Simon has really hit the nail on the head here, people who buy bootlegs and people who buy originals have surprisingly little overlap, at least with products that average below a $50 price point.

Although I disagree with placing a distinction between production and garage kits, if something is beyond someones means than it's beyond their means, regardless of whether the original creator would have charged less if they had more production resources available to them. And this goes even moreso for out of production kits, since the creator is no longer the one profiting from their sale.

I have great respect for people who are willing to spend outside of their comfort zone purely for the peace of mind of supporting the original content creators, though I would never be brave enough to do so and I don't think that's a bad thing either.




In regards to the Papo mash-up, my main complain with the Papo Spinosaurus (and one I hear people make frequently about the Baryonyx) is that the pose is simultaneously "static" and yet also "specific". The head is locked facing in one direction, which counteracts "play features" like the articulated jaw, but the body is in a fairly neutral position to the point where it makes the head looking aside feel slightly jarring. And this mash-up doesn't have these issues from what we've seen of it. I'm still unlikely to buy one because I don't have an interest in it, but it does seem to be fairly well designed. I will also note that a fair bit of it (most of the neck, and some portions of the limbs and sail) have actually been completely remade.

For anyone saying mix them yourself I'm sorry to tell you that wouldn't work, the Baryonyx head was scaled down in size to fit on the Spinosaurus body.

[IrritatorRaji]

For me, bootlegs are just a cheaper alternative. I don't make good money, so when given the option of choosing between, let's say, Rebor's £35 Ceratosaurus or an £8 bootlegged version it's kinda a no brainer for me. That, and bootlegs are better for painting and customising since they're cheap and easy to get.

[Rain]

There are three situations where I'm comfortable purchasing a bootleg product (or pirating a product if it's digital). If the original is long unavailable and my money would only be going to scalpers and not to the original creators and to respectable retailers, if the product is more expensive than I would ever be comfortable paying and therefore not denying the original creators of a sale, or if I'm only purchasing it for customization or to remove specific parts of a set.

I won't hound you for purchasing bootlegs but I don't really see how that makes it justifiable. Sure the original company wouldn't have received your money either way but you're still supporting, and thus, encouraging the bootleggers to continue.

[stargatedalek]

There are three situations where I'm comfortable purchasing a bootleg product (or pirating a product if it's digital). If the original is long unavailable and my money would only be going to scalpers and not to the original creators and to respectable retailers, if the product is more expensive than I would ever be comfortable paying and therefore not denying the original creators of a sale, or if I'm only purchasing it for customization or to remove specific parts of a set.

I won't hound you for purchasing bootlegs but I don't really see how that makes it justifiable. Sure the original company wouldn't have received your money either way but you're still supporting, and thus, encouraging the bootleggers to continue.

I feel like bootlegging companies, when they provide cheap alternatives to comparatively expensive products, and do so without significantly decreasing the quality relative to what you pay, are still providing a service. It's a service that not everyone agrees with, but it is still a service.

[Syndicate Bias]

Hmmmm, you know what, the bootlegs could be great painting practice figures for when you wanna improve your skills before painting something like a resin kit. Then again i would never paint aha, out of my skillset

[Syndicate Bias]

@SyndicateBias Is it a case of principle (legitimacy/morality)? Or more of a quality control issue? You mention that you will do whatever in your power to obtain the cheapest "legitimate" model, and will never buy a bootleg.
This figure is actually one of the least bootlegged-ish figures available. The head is a Papo Baryonyx for sure, but the body (spine-sail, tail, arms, etc.) look to be originally sculpted, but heavily inspired by the Papo Spinosaurus.

I am honestly curious. I have bought some bootlegs as a consumer and I see them (usually) as entirely different figures from what they were based(casted) on, primarily due to the bootlegs having a different paint job.
Which leads me to buy the original anyways just to stare at the comparison porn. 

The case depends on the person. I only get authentic dinosaurs, a bootleg to me is a stain in my collection and i dont see it as a separate thing but more like an abomination compared to the real thing. I look for the cheapest price available which usually is only ever a couple dollars/pounds off compared to.other competitors. Im not a fan of bootleggers and i dont judge people for what they do, if you like bootlegs thats all you. But to me its like a sin lol it would bother me to own one much more put money towards it.

I guess in my case its legitimacy over morality although i also dont like artists getting affected by bootleggers mostly resin kit builders, which is morality so i say im both.

Looking for the cheapest model possible doesnt mean get a knock off to me. It means if its rare then ill wait till i find the lowest price for it for the best quality as in how preserved it is(brand new, etc ). If its a normal item i just browse every dinosaur store like Everything Dinosaur, Minizoo, those german shops and dans dinosaurs or ebay for bids and auctions or deals, im also picky about preservation so it had to be brand new or at least have very little to none of ever being owned lol.

All in all if i cant find something i won't settle for a bootleg, i just see them as rubbish and that's that to me.

[tyrantqueen]

I feel like bootlegging companies, when they provide cheap alternatives to comparatively expensive products, and do so without significantly decreasing the quality relative to what you pay, are still providing a service. It's a service that not everyone agrees with, but it is still a service.

If a collector wishes to purchase bootlegs, that is his/her prerogative.

However, I take exception to the word you use. I would not call it a service. I don't think we should make any pretensions about what it is- it's theft.

What if I stole another artist's artwork and started printing that stolen artwork onto merchandise to profit from? Am I providing a service too? Granted, the analogy breaks down a little because a bootlegged figure is not the original piece, but I think it's a near enough one.

[stargatedalek]

I feel like bootlegging companies, when they provide cheap alternatives to comparatively expensive products, and do so without significantly decreasing the quality relative to what you pay, are still providing a service. It's a service that not everyone agrees with, but it is still a service.

If a collector wishes to purchase bootlegs, that is his/her prerogative.

However, I take exception to the word you use. I would not call it a service. I don't think we should make any pretensions about what it is- it's theft.

What if I stole another artist's artwork and started printing that stolen artwork onto merchandise to profit from? Am I providing a service too? Granted, the analogy breaks down a little because a bootlegged figure is not the original piece, but I think it's a near enough one.

A better analogy would be bootlegged "designer" clothing, bags, shoes, etc. These are products that can easily be prohibitively expensive despite their production costs not really justifying it. If a company can produce the same functional product for $30 as the "designer" company that charges $500 than they are in fact providing a service. Again, not everyone has to approve of that service, but it is a service.

[Sim]

For me, bootlegs are just a cheaper alternative. I don't make good money, so when given the option of choosing between, let's say, Rebor's £35 Ceratosaurus or an £8 bootlegged version it's kinda a no brainer for me. That, and bootlegs are better for painting and customising since they're cheap and easy to get.

I don't understand how you can say bootlegs are just a cheaper alternative for you.  Does it not matter to you if the money you pay for a model goes to people who stole the model rather than those who actually created the model?  Why did you express displeasure at the Safari Anzu being given a similar colour scheme to an Anzu on DeviantArt, saying it's stealing, when you don't call bootlegs stealing but just a cheaper alternative?


To anyone who says they buy bootlegs because they don't earn enough money to make the choice of buying the real figures:  A thought, what if you don't buy bootlegs and use the money you would've spent on them to save up for authentic figures.  You might not have as many figures, but the quality should generally be better and you'd be rewarding those who actually created the figures.  And as SidB said, "Buying is a want, not a need."  You don't have to buy a bootleg figure, you can choose to or not to.  If you're going to buy a bootleg figure, I think the least you can do is recognise what you're doing, which is buying a plagiarised figure.

[Simon]

I feel like bootlegging companies, when they provide cheap alternatives to comparatively expensive products, and do so without significantly decreasing the quality relative to what you pay, are still providing a service. It's a service that not everyone agrees with, but it is still a service.

If a collector wishes to purchase bootlegs, that is his/her prerogative.

However, I take exception to the word you use. I would not call it a service. I don't think we should make any pretensions about what it is- it's theft.

What if I stole another artist's artwork and started printing that stolen artwork onto merchandise to profit from? Am I providing a service too? Granted, the analogy breaks down a little because a bootlegged figure is not the original piece, but I think it's a near enough one.

A better analogy would be bootlegged "designer" clothing, bags, shoes, etc. These are products that can easily be prohibitively expensive despite their production costs not really justifying it. If a company can produce the same functional product for $30 as the "designer" company that charges $500 than they are in fact providing a service. Again, not everyone has to approve of that service, but it is a service.

"An analogy is the weakest form of persuasion" - Scott Adams

I don't know where to begin. 

Do you even have any idea how expensive it is for "garage kit" resin model makers to create their models?  Or how small their profit margin is?  Or how small the pool of their potential buyers is?  It only takes a couple of "bootlegged" resin versions of their kits coming from the Orient for them to just say: "The heck with this - I'm not wasting my life and time making these kits for nothing!"

As far as "toy figures" go - they are not expensive.  Not even PNSO (with the shipping from China) was all that expensive.  If its too much for you to be able to afford at this stage of life (I know there are many students and youngsters out here), then follow the advice of another poster - save your money til you can afford them.  That's how we all did it "back in the day".

Or get a part-time job to help "finance your hobby".  You'll feel much better about "earning" the figures you collect, and you won't be helping the thieves who are robbing legitimate artists.