David Silvas New Kickstarter: Articulated Dinosaur TOYS

[andrewsaurus rex]

Gothmog, or anyone in the know, do you know for sure that BOTM's intention is to do a raptor series in 1/18 that will be comprehensive and include the larger animals like Utahraptor and Dakotaraptor?  I would imagine that is the plan, but have not seen it confirmed.  I'm not on facebook or twitter so I have difficulty finding out info like that.

Also, where do the 1/18 protoceratops and psittacosaurus fit in to the big picture?  Are they part of a 4th wave of the Ceratopsian series or are they part of a new series of smaller dinosaurs or are they just a couple of tack ons to the existing Ceratopsian series?

[indohyus]

So far, only Velociraptor, Dromaeosaurus and Linheraptor have been confirmed for this scale, but who knows going forward.

[Dino Scream3232]

The 1:18 scale protoceratops and psittacosaurus will be part of wave 3. The 1:18 he's hoping will also be part of wave 3 but that's up in the air right now. There's been no mention of including the larger Dromaeosaur species in that scale...yet.

[andrewsaurus rex]

Dino Scream, you left a word out of your second sentence.  I presume you meant to say "The 1:18 RAPTORS he's hoping will also be part of wave 3..."

Thanks for the info.  Looking forward to Proto, Psitt and all the 1/18 raptors I can get my hands on.

[Dino Scream3232]

Dino Scream, you left a word out of your second sentence.  I presume you meant to say "The 1:18 RAPTORS he's hoping will also be part of wave 3..."

Thanks for the info.  Looking forward to Proto, Psitt and all the 1/18 raptors I can get my hands on.

Yep I meant to say raptors. I type too fast sometimes lol.

[Dinoguy2]

thanks, Blade.

I took a survey last night of some C. apertus adult skull sizes, out of curiosity.   From the information I was able to find the skulls averaged 46 inches from beak tip to back of the frill.  I then looked a well drawn skeletal restorations of C. apertus and determined the overall length, scaling the skull to 46 inches.  What I found surprised me.  The length worked out to be 16.5-18.1 feet, depending on which skeletal drawing I scaled from.  Much smaller than I was expecting (I find quoted dimensions for extinct animals often turn out to be too big).

So, what I think I may do is get the Centrosaurus juvenile figure and customize it a bit (enhance the horns with sculpy etc) and use it as my 1/18 C. Apertus.  It will be a bit small, but I can deal with a bit small more than I can deal with really big.  Anyway, i'm just thinking about it...

A lot of ceratopsids, especially centrosaurines, are way smaller than a lot of people apparently think. I was shocked that anyone could look at comparison photos, like that adult Centrosaurus and Hammond figure, and think that looks right. I guess I've just been near enough of these skulls in museums and so have a feel for how big they seem but no centrosaurines besides P. canadensis have skulls larger than a grown man. The "juvenile" Centrosaurus is 1/18 if you assume it's an adult (and in fact it's based on an adult skull, the holotype of C. nasicornis). The "adult" version is closer to 1:12.

[stargatedalek]

Oh? That bodes poorly for me, a 1:12 scale collector who was patiently waiting for the big Triceratops before jumping on any of these. Are any others in the 1:12 - 1:15 range?

[Dinoguy2]

Oh? That bodes poorly for me, a 1:12 scale collector who was patiently waiting for the big Triceratops before jumping on any of these. Are any others in the 1:12 - 1:15 range?

I really don't know, from what I've seen just in posts from others the scales are all over the place. I'd say the majority of the ceratopsids are closer to 1:12 than 1:18. The big Triceratops might still be on scale if you assume it's the absolute biggest most titanic specimen known, but the smaller version is probably a better 1/18 typical size Triceratops.

[andrewsaurus rex]

since I collect all my animal figures to 1/18 scale, this is a topic near and dear to my heart. 

I was one of the people surprised by how small Centrosaurus was.  I thought it was a very large animal, which of course I've learned it wasn't.  To say it grew up to 20 feet is pushing it.  There have been oodles of skeletons found so maybe there are some examples that got to that size but I would say a typical Centrosaurus  was in the 16 foot long size range, with 18 feet being a big boy (or girl). 

So far, few of the 1/18 BOTM figures are really bang on 1/18 scale for an average sized animal.  But many of them are close and certainly within the size range for those animals (one thing that makes it easier collecting animal figures to a fixed scale is the fact that most animals vary in size significantly....nothing says one has to collect only average sized animals, which I don't....as long as its in the natural size range i'm content).

So far I have only found two glaring errors in the BOTM ceratopsian series.  Zuniceratops, whish is far too big and more like 1/15 or even 1/14 and Centrosaurus which is a huge animal in 1/15 and probably closer to 1/12 for an average animal, as stated above.

I haven't analyzed many of the other figures in waves 2 and 3 yet but at a glance most of them look acceptable, if not right on.  Triceratops and Torosaurus are two possible problems (for me).  It looks like they represent HUGE animals.......however i'm reserving final judgement until I get confirmation on dimensions and better pictures.  Many of the pics available now are taken at angles or look to have been photoshopped so it can distort dimensions.  But they may both be closer to 1/16 for both animals or be humungous animals in 1/18 (the  head on the Torosaurus figure appears to be much larger than the largest skull found to date).

I keep reading about Triceratops growing up to 30 feet long but honestly, I have found ZERO evidence of that.  By scaling the largest skulls, which are based on just fragments honestly, I still only get total lengths around 25 to 26 feet at best.  If the 30 foot number was based on measuring along the curves, then none of the artwork restorations reflect that.  Most artwork show Triceratops as toweringly huge.. There was Eotriceratops, which may have been larger than Triceratops, by maybe 10% or so, but that is difficult to confirm, for me anyway.  Kelsey, the most complete Triceratops skeleton found is an adult and has about a 6 1/2 foot skull, is about 7 1/2 high at the back and probably 22 feet long measured in a straight line, so to me this calls into question some of the large sizes quoted for Triceratops (the PNSO large Triceratops figure is not bad for a 1/18 scale Triceratops, being about Kelsey's size but its head is too big).  However, there are certainly Triceratops skulls that are much larger than Kelsey's, so they did get quite a bit bigger.

If any of the upcoming BOTM ceratopsian figures are not 1/18 scale, i'll be bitching about it   so just follow my posts if your interested.

And I don't want this to be construed as criticism of BOTM and all the work they have done.  Believe me, I am DELIGHTED, to get any dinosaur figures I can in 1/18 scale.  It's a rare treat and to have such riches provided by BOTM is a dream come true.  I'm just disappointed by the few figures that aren't to scale.

[Halichoeres]

Oh? That bodes poorly for me, a 1:12 scale collector who was patiently waiting for the big Triceratops before jumping on any of these. Are any others in the 1:12 - 1:15 range?

By my measurements, the Zuniceratops is about 1:15 and the Chasmosaurus is about 1:16.

[Faelrin]

I'm curious about the scale of the Styracosaurus (versus compared to the Mattel one which I can get dimensions of if anyone needs them), and Diabloceratops myself (and maybe the upcoming Regaliceratops too). I think there was some discussion in the kickstarter comments way back during or shortly after, about the Styracosaurus being too big for 1/18th scale? But yeah I wager the shared parts contributed to it a lot.

The adult Triceratops (at least the prototype) was over a foot long I'm pretty sure. The thing was absolutely massive in size when I saw it in person back in late 2019. As well as the Pentaceratops and Torosaurus. Would definitely give some of the larger Mattel JW figures a run for their money that's for sure.

[TaranUlas]

I'm curious about the scale of the Styracosaurus (versus compared to the Mattel one which I can get dimensions of if anyone needs them), and Diabloceratops myself (and maybe the upcoming Regaliceratops too). I think there was some discussion in the kickstarter comments way back during or shortly after, about the Styracosaurus being too big for 1/18th scale? But yeah I wager the shared parts contributed to it a lot.

The adult Triceratops (at least the prototype) was over a foot long I'm pretty sure. The thing was absolutely massive in size when I saw it in person back in late 2019. As well as the Pentaceratops and Torosaurus. Would definitely give some of the larger Mattel JW figures a run for their money that's for sure.

So I got curious after everyone else's comments about the scale and decided to just do a simple nose to tail scale check for the Ceratopsians (I would have considered a more thorough scale check, but A. I shockingly don't have every prototype of the ceratopsians and B. I don't have the measurements for every skull of the ones I do own.) Some were in 1/18, others were not obviously. Part of it depends on which size measurements you use and also how willing you are to accept some variability.

The ones that were in 1/18:

• Chasmosaurus at 10.25 inches coming out to 15.38 feet in length (again, a skull measurement will be better.)
• Nasutoceratops at 10 inches coming out to an even 15 feet
• Styracosaurus at 12 inches coming out to 18 feet
• Einiosaurus at 10 inches also coming out to 15 feet
• Spiclypeus at 10 inches coming to 15 feet (This one... Normally I'm placing figures at the high end of their size for a scale. Spiclypeus is actually right at the smallest end of its scale for this. A larger one would be 1:20 or so)
• Regaliceratops at 10.5 inches coming out to 15.75 feet
• Utahceratops at 14 inches coming to 21 feet
• Pentaceratops at 16 inches coming out to 24 feet
• Triceratops at 18 inches coming out to 27 feet
• Torosaurus at 18 inches coming out to 27 feet

Anything not mentioned is not in 1:18 scale... but some could be fudged into it if you wanted.

[Dinoguy2]

I'm curious about the scale of the Styracosaurus (versus compared to the Mattel one which I can get dimensions of if anyone needs them), and Diabloceratops myself (and maybe the upcoming Regaliceratops too). I think there was some discussion in the kickstarter comments way back during or shortly after, about the Styracosaurus being too big for 1/18th scale? But yeah I wager the shared parts contributed to it a lot.

The adult Triceratops (at least the prototype) was over a foot long I'm pretty sure. The thing was absolutely massive in size when I saw it in person back in late 2019. As well as the Pentaceratops and Torosaurus. Would definitely give some of the larger Mattel JW figures a run for their money that's for sure.

So I got curious after everyone else's comments about the scale and decided to just do a simple nose to tail

Sorry but this kind of measurement doesn't really tell us much. Scientists don't typically measure specimens nose to tail because most are not based on mounted specimens. hey simply add up the individual lengths of the axial elements. So skull length plus all vertebrae (often overestimated in ceratopsids due to incomplete tails).

For example, you have Styracosaurus at 18ft nose to tail. It should actually be about 15-16ft accounting for posture.

(note that scale charts like this usually go for maximum known size, because it's more "impressive", and not average size which can be significantly smaller if lots of specimens are known).
As you can see assuming a linear measurement gives you a figure a meter too big. That also doesn't seem like a big difference - only a meter too big? But if every part of the figure is inflated, it just looks wrong compared to 1/18 human figures or other dinosaurs. Many of the BotM dinosaurs are around "rhino size" in reality but look "elephant sized". An 18ft Styracosaurus with normal proportions would have a nearly 3 meter long skull, significantly larger than any known skull and very far outside the known range of size variation.

[suspsy]

I'm so glad I don't really care about scale.

[Dinoguy2]

I'm so glad I don't really care about scale.

Yeah, I actually don't either, I'll buy the figure if it looks cool! I have an "in scale" 1:35 shelf, so if a figure happens to fit I'll throw it in there, and most of my PNSOs are together one one shelf and they're all mainly 1:25, so I put my Safari Julius Caesar up there since he matches. But scale certainly isn't a dealbreaker.

But it bugs me when people who DO care about scale are being sold a bill of goods by manufacturers who don't really know what they're doing. It's false advertising.

[andrewsaurus rex]

yeah, it's a hard life being a slave to scale. 

Dinoguy2 brings up some great points.  Trusting illustrations on the net (and most size quotes) can be very misleading, I've learned.  I wondered why total length quotes were often so far off actual lengths and Dinoguy2 cleared that up for me. I never considered the fact that scientists just added up the bits and pieces in a linear fashion, guesstimating the missing parts (of which there are often many) and coming up with the total length  that way.  That is essentially the same as measuring along the curves and that will give a significantly larger figure.. 

That plus the human nature to exaggerate (especially artists doing restorations) and to choose the largest possible size (impressive, most impressive) and that explains how sizes get inflated.

I feel the Collecta Styracosaurus is a very good size for 1/18, maybe a hair below average size but the BOTM I feel is a very big animal in 1/18....I forgot to mention this one in my analysis because I dismissed it long ago and forgot about it.

And as Dinoguy2 said.  When talking about such large animals, a meter may not sound like much  but if the animal was typically 5 meters long, then 1 meter more is a 20% increase in size.  In human terms that's the difference between a 6 foot man and a 7 foot 3 tall man.......I think most would agree there is a not insignificant size difference between the two.    Anything over 5% or 6% size difference starts to become quite noticeable.

And to add to Dinoguy2's comment about manufacturers not knowing what they are doing:  Collecta's Deluxe series figures, which are often advertised as being 1/20, are anything but.  Only a few of the figures are 1/20-ish.   Many aren't even close.

[Dinoguy2]

And as Dinoguy2 said.  When talking about such large animals, a meter may not sound like much  but if the animal was typically 5 meters long, then 1 meter more is a 20% increase in size.  In human terms that's the difference between a 6 foot man and a 7 foot 3 tall man......

Yup, and when you take I to account that this is not just height but overall dimensions, it's like standing an average US man next to Shaq 😅

[TaranUlas]

I literally said in the next sentence that I knew it wasn't perfect and that more precise scaling would be better, but I figured that people would at least be curious for a starting point. Guess I was wrong and that I clearly should have just robbed David Silvia's house for the prototypes instead.

EDIT: my apologies for snapping a bit with this. It's been a rough year for me. To put it in perspective how bad, my wish for this year isn't to not go to the hospital. It's to go to the hospital and get to keep my pants on and/or not have a scalpel taken to... sensitive areas. In addition, turned out that my medication for panic attacks amplified my irritability by a lot.

[andrewsaurus rex]

TaranUlus: if you have access to the Triceratops and Torosaurus prototypes, would it be possible to measure the lengths of the heads, from beak tip to back of the frill, along the line of the snout.  If the figures are 1/18 those measurements should be about 5 1/2 inches or less.  If much bigger, then they would be larger than the largest skulls known (or at least that I know of).

[andrewsaurus rex]

I have identified another over scale ceratopsian.  From Wave 2: Avaceratops.

This animal may have only been 8 feet long and was no longer than 14 (but that size is based on a skull that may not be Avaceratops).

So the figure at 10 inches long is definitely too big.....it's just a matter of how much too big.

It should be regarded as being in the 1/10-1/15 scale range.