PNSO : New for 2023

[TheImmortalEye]

As someone who puts stock in the lip side of things, it is great to finally have an actual scientific paper published in favor of such reconstructions.

That said, with the likes of Carr remaining unconvinced, I am very interested to see where the discussion goes from here and don't expect (nor necessarily do I want) PNSO to pivot to the lipped model right away, especially if that would entail do-overs for every grinning therapod made thus far.

i also agree with you and am pro lips overall, but honestly dont mind it with just how contentios that topic is, even the paper is not defninitive conclusion, simply a foramina count that aligns way more with lips than lipless and one examined tooth . we dont have extant archeosaurs with lips , birds show at best pseudolips akin to pnso triceratops and crocs are a highly adapted animal. so unless we find a lipped t rex mummy that topic will never truly leave.

[TheImmortalEye]

Well, lips are now supported by a scientific paper.

That's what every anti-lip person said they were waiting for. They got it. They ignore it.
It is not worth arguing with them.

i am pro lip , yet still the paper isnt the be all end all all claim , its a good read nonetheless. foramina/enamel dessecation counts dont instantly correlate to lips, its a (very) informed guess of a conclusion. its unfair to disengage with other fans based on that alone.

[Carnoking]

Carr's two word statement on the Cullen study, "Utterly unconvincing" is itself a rather unconvincing argument.

I agree that response in and of itself is hardly an argument at all, but I remain curious to hear just why he finds it "utterly unconvincing" and it's my hope he'll have something a bit more substantial to say on the matter down the line.

[Halichoeres]

Yeah, to me the only thing more infuriating than doing the highly fragmentary Tyrannotitan next would be if they did an about-face on lips and revisited all the same theropods they've already made. I'd rather they move on and make something new. But anyway this isn't the wishes thread, we have one of those: https://dinotoyblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=10615.0

Edited to add: the best company to make Tyrannotitan might be Nanmu because they're already experts at dinosaurs that are mostly made up!

[Bread]

Biggest problem with the paper is imo it examined one tooth and called the day, despite we got plenty others laying about. I understand acquiring more teeth could be costly, but a big conclusion with just one sample isn't too convicing.

I feel as though many forget about the topic regarding the alignment or orientation of the overall jaw. I find this to be more important than explaining several teeth when just one example in the paper presents the theory pretty straightforward.


Also, regarding your comment on Alligators or crocodilians, sunbasking is consistent with said animals but you have to remember it's only temporary. Plus an Alligator loses a couple hundred to a couple thousand teeth, depending on their lifespan. Meanwhile, for example, a Tyrannosaurus has a replacement tooth rate at 777 days.

@Stegotyranno420 it's very nitpicky but yes there are anatomy issues such as overbites present in their therapods, crocodilian-like scale structures around their mouths, and proportional issues.
Honestly, these are nitpicks as I am really fine with some of these issues, depending on the overall model's appearance, since really it's hard and rare for a company to land every mark. My whole point was with the addition of lips it would improve some of their therapods, but there would still be a few minor issues.

[Lynx]

I don't see why simply not redoing the theropods at the moment isn't an option. Who said they had to redo all the past ones? If future models were to have lips, that's more than enough.

[Faelrin]

Agreed except with Carnotaurus (and Tyrannosaurus, even if it isn't high on my wishlist atm). Definitely need one with updated integument post the 2021 paper (although there is the upcoming Cyberzoic one). I think most of their other theropods like the recent Suchomimus, Tarbosaurus, Acrocanthosaurus, etc are fine despite lack of lips, and any other potential minor issues.

That said I do wonder if PNSO might not give lips based on the new paper and prefer the arguments against it (although most are lacking substance atm)? One thing is that it would at least keep things stylistically consistant. Granted if they are to ever do new dromaeosaurids I would much prefer lips on them, and honestly yes you can blame JP for that, nevermind more recent paleo art. Regardless though lipped dromaeosaurids have been engrained in my mind since I was a kid. Yes this is a full on aesthetic preference I am biased towards regardlesss if evidence might lean in this direction anyways. They do look rather off to me without them so I was very glad we got them on Safari's two recent takes, and BotM before production was finished. Anyways PNSO really lacks dromaeosaurids too, despite the rich fossil history in their own locale and nearby. I would have thought for sure they'd do Velociraptor or Zhenyuanlong by now if not others. Are dromaeosaurids not as popular in the east as they are in the west (largely due to JP I imagine)? At least they did Microraptor twice, which is a genus that has helped a lot for dromaeosaurid paleontology.

[Jose S.M.]

I also wonder why they haven't made any dromeosaurs. Maybe it's the scale? Although the bigger ones like Utahraptor are almost as long as some species hey have made.

[suspsy]

I don't think scale has anything to do with it. PNSO did a perfectly good Microraptor not so long ago and it definitely was out of scale with the rest of the toys.

[Faras]

I feel as though many forget about the topic regarding the alignment or orientation of the overall jaw. I find this to be more important than explaining several teeth when just one example in the paper presents the theory pretty straightforward.


Also, regarding your comment on Alligators or crocodilians, sunbasking is consistent with said animals but you have to remember it's only temporary. Plus an Alligator loses a couple hundred to a couple thousand teeth, depending on their lifespan. Meanwhile, for example, a Tyrannosaurus has a replacement tooth rate at 777 days.

Hmm problem is the teeth had minimal wear on both sides, could mean the individual didn't survive long after growing it. A more weathered ooth could turn out differently.

Swift hyration and dehydration can crack enamel in minutes. Problem with sunbathing is alligators stay in water for hours and fully hydrate enamel, then expose teeth to severe drying which hurt labial side of teeth more. I'd like to see the study rule out other factors (which probably had less impacts on dinosaurs) that might contribute to uneven wears on alligator teeth before making comparison. Regarding replace rate, extra cracks or wears barely matter so long the teeth remain functional till new one replaces it. So I'm curious how long a living, exposed archosaur tooth could survive (hard to test, maybe pull one out and seal the root in oil?).

[Bread]

I feel as though many forget about the topic regarding the alignment or orientation of the overall jaw. I find this to be more important than explaining several teeth when just one example in the paper presents the theory pretty straightforward.


Also, regarding your comment on Alligators or crocodilians, sunbasking is consistent with said animals but you have to remember it's only temporary. Plus an Alligator loses a couple hundred to a couple thousand teeth, depending on their lifespan. Meanwhile, for example, a Tyrannosaurus has a replacement tooth rate at 777 days.

Hmm problem is the teeth had minimal wear on both sides, could mean the individual didn't survive long after growing it. A more weathered ooth could turn out differently.

Swift hyration and dehydration can crack enamel in minutes. Problem with sunbathing is alligators stay in water for hours and fully hydrate enamel, then expose teeth to severe drying which hurt labial side of teeth more. I'd like to see the study rule out other factors (which probably had less impacts on dinosaurs) that might contribute to uneven wears on alligator teeth before making comparison. Regarding replace rate, extra cracks or wears barely matter so long the teeth remain functional till new one replaces it. So I'm curious how long a living, exposed archosaur tooth could survive (hard to test, maybe pull one out and seal the root in oil?).

Again, Alligators replace their teeth at about 40-50 times within their lifespan. So the constant hydration, dehydration is supported by this extreme tooth replacement.

Also, the tooth compared in the paper was a 500 day old Daspletosaurus tooth, which considering Tyrannosaurus teeth had an average of 777 days, that's decently old and worn tooth.

To add more, here is what is from Mark Witton's blog post. I feel as though he better summarized and explained the original paper.

[Faras]

Again, Alligators replace their teeth at about 40-50 times within their lifespan. So the constant hydration, dehydration is supported by this extreme tooth replacement.

Also, the tooth compared in the paper was a 500 day old Daspletosaurus tooth, which considering Tyrannosaurus teeth had an average of 777 days, that's decently old and worn tooth.

To add more, here is what is from Mark Witton's blog post. I feel as though he better summarized and explained the original paper.

What I am saying is the paper did not test several factors that puts extra wear on outer parts of alligator teeth. Assuming both are exposed, heavily used and nearly about to be replaced, dino tooth might show less asymmetric wear than alligators' due to less exposure to these elements.

512 days old since it started to form in bones, but when did the tooth pop out of gingiva, grow long enough to engage in active biting and for how long the individual feeded before death - "No evidence of any substantial wear" quote from the paper.

Crocodilians are not perfect targets for comparison. Problem with one Daspletosaurus tooth is other things might have shifted its wear patterns. Yes evidences here tipped the scale towards lips, but IMO the conclusion is far from "definitive".

[Bread]

"No evidence of any substantial wear" seems to me represents the presence of lips.

I agree, it is not definitive, but it seems to be heavily swayed to therapods possessing lips.

[Faelrin]

I believe they went with crocodilians since those are the only terrestrial extant lipless archosaurs, and those are what the lipless crowd frequently compares theropods too, in suggesting why they would be lipless (other then the teeth too big arguement which I think this paper did a good job countering that with their monitor lizard comparisons). I agree more evidence is needed for both parties. That said the supplemental material of the recent paper is worth a read and is quite easily overlooked.

Btw been nearly a month since the Mapusaurus was revealed (least on instagram). It was posted on March 24.

[SidB]

March 24, @Faelrin  ... I'm missing my monthly PNSO 'fix', so that sure seems right. On the other hand, my attention has been largely taken up by Haolonggood's offerings, so I'm sort of glad that PNSO hasn't been too quick to introduce anything new in the interim. If sales are good, it would be quite in order to visualize the latter continuing to move into PNSO's retail space. Vitae tried, and failed, but Haolonggood may have a legitimate chance to become a genuine contender.

[Faelrin]

Yeah not like I can buy any PNSO at the moment so I don't really mind the wait to be honest. Though I do wonder if another reveal from them is coming up soon.

Meraxes was revealed March 1st, and Giganotosaurus was revealed Feb 8th. They did also recently post the company will have its first full time CEO on April 10th. Not sure what that entails and if that would even change their production schedule though.

[suspsy]

I'm sure Topaz the Tyrannotitan will be revealed any day now!

[Dusty Wren]

I'm sure Topaz the Tyrannotitan will be revealed any day now!

oh please no

[Concavenator]

I'm sure Topaz the Tyrannotitan will be revealed any day now!

Please don't tell me that.

[Eatmycar]

TBH a new CEO might change things a bit... never know with these corporate types.

I for one welcome Topaz the Tyrannotitan, though, provided their colors aren't brown and brown-er.